Alikchi
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If Kornilov had lived...

Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:31 pm

I'm considering ideas for mods for RUS, and this one came to mind. However, I don't know enough about Kornilov to make a judgement as to what could have happened.

So, was the life or death of Kornilov significant enough to strongly effect the RCW? In ways that could make a game of RUS different?

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TheDoctorKing
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:05 am

Just some thoughts: Kornilov was an exceptionally gifted officer during WWI. On the other hand, skills in WWI did not necessarily translate into skills for the very different sort of war the Whites had to fight in the Civil War. But he would probably have been one of the best officers the Whites had available.

He was pretty anti-democratic and prone to drastic action. I'd say he qualified for the "hated occupier" characteristic. Maybe make him a pillager? He was a Cossack by birth, so he should be able to command Cossacks without difficulty. With him in command, there might be more difficulty coordinating between the Southern and Siberian White factions though how you would simulate that I don't know.
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Clovis
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:36 am

Interesting ideas. Another great What if would be Brusilov rallying White camp....
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Alikchi
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:55 am

Did general officers tend to carry over their seniority from the old Imperial Army, or would someone else in charge have led to a different structure of officers? Kornilov might recognize Wrangel's potential early, for instance.. or he might completely ignore him.

Brusilov's a great idea. I imagine his support for the Whites would have political ramifications as well.

Thanks for the thoughts, folks.

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Alexor
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:43 am

A major what-if already discussed earlier was the death/survival of the Imperial family in Ekaterinburg in July 18.
It would probably have boosted some part of the Whites while weakening the support of the Komuch or other SR's for example.

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le Anders
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Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:10 pm

Alexor wrote:A major what-if already discussed earlier was the death/survival of the Imperial family in Ekaterinburg in July 18.

That part of RUS is a bit frustrating (as is the auto-disappearance of the Gold Train from Kazan,) I would much rather see an algorithm where there's a chance of the Imperials not being executed, given certain in-game conditions. There are just too few alternate outcomes like that in the game.

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Orel
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Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:28 pm

If we shall be speaking in the short term(real life situation by Ekaterinodar) then if Kornilov survived the Whites would have most likely taken the city. Pretty much the deaths of Nezhentzev and Kornilov were what devastated the Whites. White troops were already in the rear of the Communists in Ekaterinodar, with the Reds not knowing a single thing about this.

Towards Kornilov as a commander, I must note that in terms of tactics he was probably one of the best. One German General even said "Kornilov is an element(element as in air, water, land and fire) of its own and not a man". The least the whites would get if he were to survive in the long term is a splendid commander.

The Lev
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Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:59 pm

Indeed, the Siberian Succession is one thing variety could really affect, also a 1 in 100 chance of Germany not pulling out (Armistice on the west or even a German Victory) and see how not having Ukraine or the Baltic states would impact the White movement

Definately Siberian options, like having three options for the Czech Legion-a breakthrough west, a full withdrawal east or the phased withdrawal/garrissoning which ended up happening. Boldyrev holding his position? i like Boldyrev-something about Siberian Regionalism which i find appealing

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Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:03 pm

Regarding Kornilov, i can't help but think that the greater "What If" of the Kuban campaign was the loss of Ekaterinodar to the reds in the first place. Kenez' War in South Russia mentions that Pokrovskii held the approaches to the town (against incredible odds) succesfully, untill recalled for promotion and ceremony for two days-when his second in command got drunk and abandonned a key redoubt-without which Ekaterinodar lay exposed. The fate of the Kuban cossacks rested with Pokrovskii's army that day, and if Ekaterinodar had held (it was lost not long before Kornilov reached it) it would not only have served as a greater foundation for the White movement, but also shaped the movement's politics with greater cossack influence.

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andatiep
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Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:17 am

The Lev wrote:Definately Siberian options, like having three options for the Czech Legion-a breakthrough west, a full withdrawal east or the phased withdrawal/garrissoning which ended up happening.


I'm not sure the Czech Legion could have an Option "breakthrough west".
They spend the summer 1918 to gather their troops from all along the Transiberian railroads (some was even already in Vladivostock) and to fight back on the Volga. Their war objective was to re-open a front against Germany/Austria (and to support Russian factions which want it to be). When the WWI Armistice happen, most of the Legion refused to continue an offensive fight and only wanted to fight to reach sea ports to go home. But :

1) If the Czech legion did managed in the few first months of summer operations to reach Arkangelsk, then linked to the Volga front : It could not embark there, because from 11 november 1918 to spring 1919, the northern seas are frozen.

2) So the last option would be to reach the Black sea. But to manage a peacefull evacuation, it would need the control of the railroad Samara-Tambov-Tsarytsyn-Rostov. The Volga could have been an alternative way to reach Tsarytsyn from Samara without crossing Tambov, but it is also frozen in winter...
If the Whites could hold this railroad and this towns without problems during few months from november 1918, they could allow the whole Legion to move and reach Rostov. But it was one of the more active front of that time and the Czech didn't wanted to be on the front anymore...
In the History, when the armistice happen, the Czech legion was already repulsed in the Oural mountains. So far away from the required objectives to control.
If the White player succeed to hold the Volga, it would be already nice, but to control completely this evacuation way in november 1918 would be a rare game situation.




The Lev wrote:Boldyrev holding his position? i like Boldyrev-something about Siberian Regionalism which i find appealing


Planed for next patch : If you lose the Volga, Komuch collapse, a directory regim set a capital in Omsk with Boldyrev, then players get a new option which allow a choice to keep the Directory regim or to set up a military dictatorship (Kolchak Coup).
REVOLUTION UNDER SIEGE GOLD

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Orel
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Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:26 pm

The Lev wrote:Regarding Kornilov, i can't help but think that the greater "What If" of the Kuban campaign was the loss of Ekaterinodar to the reds in the first place. Kenez' War in South Russia mentions that Pokrovskii held the approaches to the town (against incredible odds) succesfully, untill recalled for promotion and ceremony for two days-when his second in command got drunk and abandonned a key redoubt-without which Ekaterinodar lay exposed. The fate of the Kuban cossacks rested with Pokrovskii's army that day, and if Ekaterinodar had held (it was lost not long before Kornilov reached it) it would not only have served as a greater foundation for the White movement, but also shaped the movement's politics with greater cossack influence.


I heard something absolutely different:

Pokrovskiy was expecting Kornilov to arrive, but he did not know when he will do so. He sent messengers to find Kornilov but none returned. Eventually, he supposed that Kornilov's men were defeated somewhere else, and ordered a retreat. While retreating, they accidentally stumbled upon Kornilov's army, and finally united. I heard nothing about any sort of alcoholic intoxication being, as well is it known who was his second in command?
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