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andatiep
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Finnish proto-nazis ?

Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:08 pm

Does someone know why there is a blue svastika cross on each finnish planes (e.g. see Helsinki Airfield unit) :blink: ?
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Pocus
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Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:15 pm

Wikipedia is your friend. The symbol predates quite a bit what the nazi did with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Western_use_in_the_early_20th_century
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Raidhaennor
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Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:17 pm

I was going to post exactly that. :D

To complete : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Air_Force

"Von Rosen had painted his personal good luck charm on the Thulin Typ D aircraft. This charm – a blue swastika, the ancient symbol of good luck – was adopted as the insignia of the Finnish Air Force"

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andatiep
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Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:06 pm

Good luck who need it... :evilgrin:

I'd really like to know the details of the discussions on post-WWII swastika finnish use beetween De Gaulle and Kekkonen... :D
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StephenT
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Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:48 am

Raidhaennor wrote:"Von Rosen had painted his personal good luck charm on the Thulin Typ D aircraft. This charm – a blue swastika, the ancient symbol of good luck – was adopted as the insignia of the Finnish Air Force"
Although it should be pointed out that von Rosen was also a founder member of the Swedish Nazi Party (Nationalsocialistiska blocket) in 1933, and Hermann Göring's brother-in-law. So saying that his use of the swastika has nothing to do with the German use of it is stretching things a little. :D

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andatiep
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:01 pm

StephenT wrote:Although it should be pointed out that von Rosen was also a founder member of the Swedish Nazi Party (Nationalsocialistiska blocket) in 1933, and Hermann Göring's brother-in-law. So saying that his use of the swastika has nothing to do with the German use of it is stretching things a little. :D


Very interesting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_von_Rosen). The same search for "viking" symbols to illustrate the racial theories of superiority of this times.

Now i understand Stalin starting the Winter War...
To have such bad and less taste than him can't be tolerated in a neighboring country of the "Socialist" motherland...

What i still wonder is the fact that the finnish government waited so long to change this symbol. After all, he wasn't so nazi, and the symbol was given by a swedish and not really known by the finnish population...

By respect to Mannerheim choice ? But why Mannerheim choosed to adopt it and to keep it during all the 30's and 40's ? It was not a clever diplomatic choice to slow down Stalin's view on Finland and to get Allies support.
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PhilThib
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:43 pm

That was the good ol' time when that bl... 'politically correct' pestilence was not polluting discussions like it does today ;) :D
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Baris
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:17 pm

andatiep wrote:By respect to Mannerheim choice ? But why Mannerheim choosed to adopt it and to keep it during all the 30's and 40's ? It was not a clever diplomatic choice to slow down Stalin's view on Finland and to get Allies support.


I guess Stalin didnt attack because of the symbol or the Allies didnt help because of that.. (LOL)
Even Western powers were relatively more democratic to Germany, It doesn't mean western europe was less ra..st. They were more politically correct and rational said an English professor when I talked before.

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Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:00 pm

Baris wrote:I guess Stalin didnt attack because of the symbol or the Allies didnt help because of that.. (LOL)
Even Western powers were relatively more democratic to Germany, It doesn't mean western europe was less ra..st. They were more politically correct and rational said an English professor when I talked before.


I wanted to say that the finnish swastika was surely white bread for the communist propaganda from 30's to "prove" that Finland was a nazi satelite of the 3d Reich, and that this kind of very visible symbol could have make it also less easy for the western governments to call for helping Finland against URSS if they faced themselves communist/socialist opposition.

Any propaganda and rumor need a little piece of true to be very efficient...
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Baris
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Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:12 pm

andatiep wrote:I wanted to say that the finnish swastika was surely white bread for the communist propaganda from 30's to "prove" that Finland was a nazi satelite of the 3d Reich, and that this kind of very visible symbol could have make it also less easy for the western governments to call for helping Finland against URSS if they faced themselves communist/socialist opposition.

Any propaganda and rumor need a little piece of true to be very efficient...


I always imagined Finland as Social democrat. Finland was in autonomous state of Russian Empire. The first one's to oppose bolsheviks is the social democrats not right-wing parties as written in wiki(I dont know its true? but interesting)
On the other hand as Russian empire ruled 100 years(not directly I guess) it explains why Stalin decided to get Finland again with direct control this time. As it is not practical to form socialism with many autonomy states.(including caucasus states)

And is it the political goals related to rumours,flags and symbols OR not to bite off more than you can chew. Also it is about loss or gain factor.

There is a symbol found in Sibbo in Finland. A Labyrinth.

[ATTACH]14076[/ATTACH]
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andatiep
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Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:33 am

Baris wrote:
There is a symbol found in Sibbo in Finland. A Labyrinth.

[ATTACH]14076[/ATTACH]



Nice. Do you have a datation of this symbol ?


PS: i didn't find any swastika inside the labyrinth, so at least its datation cames after the introduction of the aviation in Finland :neener: ....
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Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:26 pm

andatiep wrote:Nice. Do you have a datation of this symbol ?




Actually symbol is painted in the ceiling of Nordic churches. In the centre of the circle is a woman that she is trying to find the way out of Labyrinth.
Symbol started to be illustrated in the Nordic churches from 15 th century.
I have very limited knowledge about archeology or history of symbols, I leave it here :D very mystic for me :blink:

http://www.labyrinthos.net/nordchurch1.html
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Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:28 am

Think before calling people to neonazis without any proof it makes you look ignorant

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Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:15 am

The blue swastika is symbol of Finnish air forces And it is still symbol of our airforce, and it there because it was a symbol of the guy ho gave the first air plane to Finland in ciwil war. And it is Stone Age symbol as well in Finland and it is found in cave paintings in here.. There u have nazi propaganda now go and hang your self.

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andatiep
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Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:17 pm

White Guard wrote:Think before calling people to neonazis without any proof it makes you look ignorant


Are you telling us that we called some people here neonazis ?

If yes, i would like you to read (again, if you did it already) all this thread to be sure you don't make you look ignorant in English.

You may see that nobody here called people (or maybe i suppose you mean the Finnish People ?) neo-nazis.
You may also find in the wiktionary (in whatever languages) that "proto-" is the opposite meaning of "neo-".

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Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:20 pm

havi wrote:The blue swastika is symbol of Finnish air forces And it is still symbol of our airforce,


Trying desperately to look less ignorant, i found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Air_Force that :
"The FAF changed the insignia after 1944, due to an Allied Control Commission decree[6] prohibiting the existence of Pro-Hitler and Fascism organizations. The Hakaristi was removed due to the resemblance to the Nazi Swastika."

So it looks like if there is today an airforce somewhere in the world that has still this symbol, and if it is your airforce, then be aware that maybe someone will start to call you and your co-pilots neonazis.

By the way, in this wikipedia page, there is an interesting photo : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Bristol_Blenheim_Mk._IV_of_the_Finnish_Air_Force.jpg/220px-Bristol_Blenheim_Mk._IV_of_the_Finnish_Air_Force.jpg
I supposed that in 1944, the British members the Allied Control Commission finally didn't appreciate that their Bristol Blenheim provided to Finland was painted with the same symbol that the planes which destroyed London just few years before.

havi wrote: and it there because it was a symbol of the guy ho gave the first air plane to Finland in ciwil war. And it is Stone Age symbol as well in Finland and it is found in cave paintings in here.. There u have nazi propaganda now go and hang your self.


I just hope that you don't expect the forumer StephenT to be hanged because he pointed in this thread that this "guy who gave the first plane to Finland in civil war", :
StephenT wrote:von Rosen was also a founder member of the Swedish Nazi Party (Nationalsocialistiska blocket) in 1933, and Hermann Göring's brother-in-law. So saying that his use of the swastika has nothing to do with the German use of it is stretching things a little.


No hanging party today, come down and discuss with calm.
Please don't feel, here in this forum, personally offensed or proud by whatever draw on their planes whatever peoples who don't exist anymore.

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Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:06 pm

It is not nazi-swastika it is hakaristi actually..nazi-swastika stands on point of one "sakara" don't know the English word hakaristi dosnt stand on tip of "sakara" and if u look closely u can see the difrence. The hakaristi is one of our national emblem far beyond there was any nazis and that is a fact.. And how u think about the red star on air planes or military caps it is as bad emblem? Yes but if it was van-Rosen how gave the first air plane in Finland (too lazy to check) it was in year of 1917 and the party was organized 33 so 16 years later when the emblem was but on use!

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andatiep
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Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:15 pm

Obviously, the symbol and its variants are very very old and appear in various spots on the Eurasian continent. So there is various peoples from the Hymalaya mountains to the forests of Finland that say it is one of their "national" or "religious" emblem.
Many peoples, especially in India and Asia had to give up the public use and display of this symbol or variants, juste because of the use ot it by the nazis in Europe from 1920 till the WWII. And this kind of "cultural censorship" concern millions of peoples, just because some Europeans did very bad things with this symbol and that now, in our World village, it become immoral for all Humans to use it.
That's why the question in this thread was not to call all the Finnish "nazis" because of this.

Finally some questions remain, just for neutral historical research and without the aim of offensing the Finnish people :


  • Would the Finnish government in 1917 adopt a spoon as symbol for the FAF if Von Rosen did painted this on the plane he gave him ? Or was the swastika or its variants among the top famous symbol known by the Finnish population that would anyway be chosen to replace any symbol the Von Rosen plane could have painted on it ? Most likely, i suppose this symbol was first chosen and use without critics to honour a "friend of Finland" that help it in a difficult period, without knowing at this stage what this friend will do few years later, as a "friend of the Nazi Germany". Here is what says the Von Rosen wikipedia page :

The von Rosen swastika

Eric von Rosen had been using a swastika as a personal owner's mark. He originally saw the symbol on runestones in Gotland, while at school. Knowing that the symbol signified good luck for the Vikings, he utilized the symbol and had it carved into all his luggage when going on an expedition to South America in 1901. Being a friend of Finland, he gave the newly independent state an aircraft, which signified the beginning of the Finnish Air Force. The aircraft, a license manufactured Morane-Saulnier MS Parasol/Thulin D, was marked with his badge, a blue swastika on a white background. The Finnish Air Force adopted this roundel as their national insignia.[3]
Göring had noted the swastika during his stay in Sweden and at von Rosens' castle (forged into a metal piece at the fireplace). However, the swastika of the German Nazi party had been adopted already in 1920, two years before Göring met Adolf Hitler.



  • Why the Finnish governement keeped this symbol on their planes between 1933 and 1944, knowning it was offered to him by a declared nazi and knowing it was adopted on the other side of the Baltic sea as a new German State symbol (and by the way was then also painted on the German planes) ?

  • Finally, does other German creators of the NSDAP (so before Göring arrived) knew von Rosen or its adopted personnal symbol or do they just chose it among other "Germanic" or "Viking" Symbol without knowing him.

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RebelYell
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Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:19 pm

HALONEN-FINNISH-AIRFORCE.jpeg


Former president Tarja Halonen (SDP) receiving the official standard of the Finnish air force at the presidential palace.


I dont think Finns really care what others think about our symbols, they are not stone age but in many cases iron age.
Finnish culture and population is one of the least altered in Europe during the past 1500 years, this symbol is part of that heritage, it really was not invented by van Rosen as it is international for millenia so we can continue to use it.


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Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:52 pm

RebelYell wrote:Finnish culture and population is one of the least altered in Europe during the past 1500 years, this symbol is part of that heritage, it really was not invented by van Rosen as it is international for millenia so we can continue to use it.

But as a political use, it seems comming from civil war against reds.
So the nowaday finnish government seems want to support anti-left, and/or even maybe anti-russian feelings. I can understand that, for fear of bolshevism or being puppet of russia. And actually this is not specially nazi.

Baris
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Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:11 pm

Left can be in corporation with ethnic minority nationalism likewise liberals can have similar coop with far rightists. From what I read and experienced with this false relationship that they hate each other when they don't agree at some point and change sides rather quickly. I believe strong leadership thingy matters the most for mass electors that they sacrifice democracy at some point.

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le Anders
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Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:33 pm

All Finns are kryptonazis.
/thread

Seriously, I've been trolling Finns about that swastika-flag for years now, and that still doesn't change the fact that it was merely a nice, nationalistic symbol that pointed towards the imagined glories of the past (vikings, kalevala, etc).
On a side note about symbols, it's interesting how many countries still use the fasces in various government functions. Looks like Mussolini's fascism wasn't as detested as Hitler's variant.

http://www.bundesregierung.de/Content/EN/Artikel/2009/11/bild/2009-11-03-eine-seltene-ehre.jpg?__blob=poster&v=3
http://viddal.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/politi.png?w=510
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces

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ERISS
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Wed May 14, 2014 10:34 am

The svastika was also seen on some helmets of german freikorps in 1920, soldiers used by the german socialist party against the german revolution. It must come as brotherhood with the finnish fighters against reds in recent finnish civil war. Then many freikorps will turn up nazi and fight against their socialist sponsors.

The nazi svastika was a crypto war declaration against 'soviet' Russia, it was usefull to please afraid world bourgeoisy ('we nazi want to do like finnish: reds go out!') and appeal their funds.

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