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barbu
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Historical map of the RCW fronts

Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:08 am

http://www.emersonkent.com/images/map_russian_civil_war.jpg

This map is good without being perfect:

1) It shows all major cities in the West and Centre for all of us who are not familiar with Russian geography.

2) It allows us to compare ourselves with the historical performance of the Reds and Whites.

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Rafiki
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Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:30 am

Nice one, barbu, thanks :)
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Maps

Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:52 pm

This is probably stating the very obvious, but there are several excellent maps and a decent chronology on the Wikipedia Russian Civil War entry...

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Василеостровск
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Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:39 pm

Here is good website with good maps and colors with each year clickable on top chronology is at bottom unfortunately it all in Russian. Google translate works good for that but not map. If interested in map translation maybe you can screenshot of what interest you and i can translate.

http://www.ostu.ru/personal/nikolaev/rus1920.html
Россия, Украина, Белоруссия - Племён славянских три богатыря
Russia, Ukraine, Belarus - The Slavic tribes' three knights

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Kev_uk
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Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:52 pm



Just what does Vasileostrovskaya or Василеостровск mean in English? Curious.

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Василеостровск
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Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:58 pm

Kev_uk wrote:Just what does Vasileostrovskaya or Василеостровск mean in English? Curious.


Василеостровская is Vasileostrovskaya and is my metro station :) It is combination of Vasilievsky and Ostrov (Vasili Island)

Image

not much info on English wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasileostrovskaya
Россия, Украина, Белоруссия - Племён славянских три богатыря

Russia, Ukraine, Belarus - The Slavic tribes' three knights

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Kev_uk
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Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:43 pm

Ahh, so you live in St.Petersburg then? Much history in that city. I bet it is cold this time of year?

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Василеостровск
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Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:56 am

Yes, i live in Piter. Right now getting to winter. Small amount of snow last night, like dust.

To keep with theme, here is really good map, although again, it is in Russian language:

Image
Россия, Украина, Белоруссия - Племён славянских три богатыря

Russia, Ukraine, Belarus - The Slavic tribes' three knights

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Kev_uk
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Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:48 pm

What a colourful map - shame I cannot read Russian!

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Alexor
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Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:14 pm

that last Russian map is interesting because it still has a strong Communist propaganda element in it.
If you look carefully it never shows that the Volonteer Army took Tsarytsine nor Orel...It can't be a mistake, it's done in purpose to underplay the success of the Whites.

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barbu
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Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:56 pm

Well, how about this?

Image


It's also attached below.
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Strategic Map.jpg

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Kev_uk
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Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:29 pm

Perhaps someone could do an AAR and fill in the gaps?

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Василеостровск
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Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:22 pm

Alexor wrote:that last Russian map is interesting because it still has a strong Communist propaganda element in it.
If you look carefully it never shows that the Volonteer Army took Tsarytsine nor Orel...It can't be a mistake, it's done in purpose to underplay the success of the Whites.


It is an old government map ;)
Россия, Украина, Белоруссия - Племён славянских три богатыря

Russia, Ukraine, Belarus - The Slavic tribes' three knights

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RICCO7859
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Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:05 pm

Here, there are some very interesting maps in english :

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=160648

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ERISS
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Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:31 pm

RICCO7859 wrote:Here, there are some very interesting maps in english :
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=160648

Excellent!
I added Maknovist army September 1919 operation:
A HUGE retreat from Taganrog to Uman, where Petlioura let the White encircle the Blacks (the white circle I made near Petlioura's army).
Image
Orange dots are the bigger battles against Whites when makhovists orderly flee, save the bigger one:
Then the makhnovists make a night surprise come back on the bigger White elite infantry troops to their East, defeat them at Peregonovka (the true 'Orel' battle), and make them ROUT (not just make them retreat) and destroyed parts of the White surrounding army,
to the makhnov made their huge come back, and steal everywhere they can all ingenously lightly guarded white supplies (while the Whites take Orel), to their past positions to the East (the already made area of the map, a little smaller, which is the extend of 1920, mine is max extend of 1919 including some lost red forces near Odessa which integered black army).
THEN, 2 weeks later, and not before, you can see the Red army moving south (since many months they only moved north..) following on the remaining retreating Whites.

So, the AI seems some lacking with the anarchists... The way seems ingame easy for the south Whites, for now.

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:33 pm

Another map (sorry also in Russian) showing Eastern Front in second half of August,1918.Note Soviet Armies from 1 to 5 (with 3rd which I fighting for in another topic ;) )(4th under Khvesin and 5 under Slaven's command) and EA -Ekaterinburg Army, ПА-Chechek Army of Volga,OK-Dutov's Army,УК-Ural's Corp of Martynov. Blukher is already united with 3rd Army near Kungur and not shown separately.[ATTACH]14319[/ATTACH]
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East-Front-summer-1918.JPG

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RICCO7859
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Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:10 pm

here another good site with some maps and articles:

http://pygmy-wars.50megs.com/technical/maps/maps.html

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ERISS
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Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:02 pm

RICCO7859 wrote:here another good site with some maps and articles:
http://pygmy-wars.50megs.com/technical/maps/maps.html

Shinkarenko article is not very good, as he always fought against Reds, and elite White cavalry was sent against Blacks:
"I would like to repeat a thousand times: the cavalry shock is only a mirage.
But if the shock does not exist in reality, if belief in it is only a prejudice, one knows enough to insist on the absolute necessity of that belief for the morale and success of the arm. There is always one cavalry which turns its back,"

White commandants having fought against makhnovists wrote their thougher combats of the entire Civil War were against makhnovist artillery and cavalry. Makhnovists too aknowlegded the White elite cavalry didn't care about death and were their thougher fights, and there were cavalry shocks and hacking saber combats.

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Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:17 am

ERISS wrote:Makhnovists too aknowlegded the White elite cavalry didn't care about death and were their thougher fights, and there were cavalry shocks and hacking saber combats.


Where are these Makhnovist accounts written by guys who actually fought? There's plenty by men who liked to talk up the Makhnovist army, but didn't actually go to the battles.

Meanwhile accounts by soldiers who actually fought make it clear that prolonged hand-to-hand combat was a very rare event. One side cracks at the last moment and either stops the charge or flees.

This applies to cavalry in all wars. That the Anarchists in the Russian Civil War would break the pattern of centuries is just not credible.

elite White cavalry was sent against Blacks


No it wasn't. The cavalry sent against Makhno was the standard White cavalry.

At Peregenovka the Whites sent hardly any cavalry. And the Taman Cossacks were hardly a crack regiment.

Denikin made a mistake taking Makhno too lightly. As part of that, his mistake was to not send enough quality troops. Of course he made that mistake precisely because his experience is that his men did not find the Makhnovists particularly staunch opponents.

It is not consistent to argue that the Makhnovists always provided strong opposition, yet experienced soldiers did not seem to notice that! White accounts are quite consistent: the Makhnovists provided a strong military challenge because they were hard to pin down,. But they were never really worried about one-on-one battles in open ground.

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ERISS
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Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:58 pm

Mark Plant wrote:Where are these Makhnovist accounts written by guys who actually fought?
Meanwhile accounts by soldiers who actually fought make it clear that prolonged hand-to-hand combat was a very rare event. One side cracks at the last moment and either stops the charge or flees.

Makhno writing in Arshinov book (I translate from french):
"Denikin cavalry was a true one, deserving its name. The one, numerous, of the red army, was only a cavalry by name. It never was able to fight in close combat, and only moved when their enemy was defeated by artillery or machinegun fire. During all the civil war, red cavalry, although always more numerous, never agree to fight with saber the makhnovist cavalry. Caucasian and cosak cavalry regiments of Denikin were very different. They always agreed to fight with saber and always rushed flat out to the enemy, never waiting for the artillery and machinegun fires to desorganise the enemy."
Archinov follows:
"However, Denikin cavalry broke their neck more than once when fighting against makhnovists. The chiefs of denikin regiments often wrote in their notebooks we took that their war versus makhnovist artillery and cavalry was the more dreadfull and painfull in all their campaign."
So, ok, you're right, Arshinov gave no name nor exemple of those papers.
This applies to cavalry in all wars. That the Anarchists in the Russian Civil War would break the pattern of centuries is just not credible.

And they broke it. They were inconceivable.
Slashov (the general that Denikin had sent chasing the makhnovists) wrote there was the legend of 'Kleist', a german colonel who in the Makhno' shadow was believed assisting and leading the makhnovists, as few White could believe the moujiks could make war by themselves!
The Red army too didn't understand. But they were smart as they studied hard and copied them, applying this against Poland (but Stalin spoiled it, and later had spoilled it for long...).
No it wasn't. The cavalry sent against Makhno was the standard White cavalry.
At Peregenovka the Whites sent hardly any cavalry. And the Taman Cossacks were hardly a crack regiment.
Denikin made a mistake taking Makhno too lightly. As part of that, his mistake was to not send enough quality troops.

You're some right:
The white cavalry didn't (want to?) go so far with Slashov.
There were "quality troop" against makhnovists, but that was infantry.
The elite cavalry was only sent (and all of them!) by Denikin when it was too late, but they were defeated by makhnovists too as they were sent alone (again Denikin underestimated makhnovists, always!).
Of course he made that mistake precisely because his experience is that his men did not find the Makhnovists particularly staunch opponents.

They did! Even Slashov did, but Denikin never wanted to listen to them.
It is not consistent to argue that the Makhnovists always provided strong opposition, yet experienced soldiers did not seem to notice that! White accounts are quite consistent: the Makhnovists provided a strong military challenge because they were hard to pin down,. But they were never really worried about one-on-one battles in open ground.

You're right, but it's not the entire truth. Maknovists didn't look for one vs one battle (against Whites), they were not fools and they were fast. But they didn't flee when they could win (contrary to the red cavalry). The makhnovists were challenging because they were an actual threat too, not because they were just non catchable. General Slashov/Slashehev/Slachtchev become real mad for Denikin was so narrow-minded. Maybe that's why, late, desperate, he finally joined the Reds...

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ERISS
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Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:09 pm

ERISS wrote: the makhnov made their huge come back, and steal everywhere they can all ingenously lightly guarded white supplies, to their past positions to the East

Here the map of their huge coming back and raids against White back (even White great HQ was raided!, 3 days after the Whites took Orel):
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?233@90.SVTDbFOiUsg.0@.1dd2e848!enclosure=.1dd4ef7d
Then makhnov army use the Dniepr as protection, against White fighting back (maybe to secure the way of their general retreat from the advancing Reds):
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?233@90.SVTDbFOiUsg.0@.1dd2e848!enclosure=.1dd4ef7e
Advancing Reds (at least half the makhnovists are decimated by typhus!):
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?233@90.SVTDbFOiUsg.0@.1dd2e848!enclosure=.1dd4ef7f
(These are from the very good work of game designer: http://www.legionwargames.com/legion_tatchanka.html)

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ERISS
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Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:21 am

End of makhnovchtchina:
Stephen VELYCHENKO
UKRAINIANS RETHINK THEIR REVOLUTIONS
(...) The decisive factor in Makno’s defeat was famine. Incessant requisitions, a bad harvest in 1920, and then drought led to hunger in 1921.
Although the Bolsheviks controlled southern Ukrainian towns by then, they neither lowered procurement rates nor provided relief. They did this deliberately to cause famine, argue the authors—and almost all Ukrainian historians agree. By the end of 1921 an estimated two million people in southern Ukraine had died of starvation and armed resistance stopped. As there are still some who doubt Bolshevik intent, it is worth noting that recent work on Bolshevik policies elsewhere shows they were not very concerned with niceties when it came to imposing their authority.
Faced with strong resistance they used poison gas against the civilian population in Tambov province, and in February-March 1919 systematically executed every inhabitant of the Don Region they could capture in what amounted to intentional genocide. (...)

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RICCO7859
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Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:38 pm

here, you have some maps about finnish war and youdenitch offensive:

http://www.strategikon.info/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6585&start=30.

It's very interresting because we can see that northwest army was not at Psov but at Narva.

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RICCO7859
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Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:32 am

Here you have a map and OB white and red for the Battle of Cheliabinsk:

http://www.charlottegarrison.org/BARRAGE/Scenarios_OBs/RCW_BattleOfCheliabinsk.html

and here you have some OB:

http://www.charlottegarrison.org/BARRAGE/

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Jorje Vidrio
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Wed May 11, 2011 3:24 am

Many thanks to everyone who contributed maps to this thread! :thumbsup:

It really helps a neophyte like me who knows next to nothing about the RCW. :bonk:

But thanks to RUS, I'm learning a lot more about an area of military history that I knew practically nothing about! :dada:

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