ERISS wrote:* At least a great White general who was so pride of his 'political' tricks on the makhnovists (on the jews I say..) that he was idiot writing it!
В wrote:All sides carried out pogroms to an extent during war.
I find odd you make such a big deal about cover art not being sensitive and could offend, but you make thread wanting to add simulation of systematic removal and/or murder of people based on religious and ethnicity background, and those victims are Jewish people? Do not you think more people would find that offensive than hammer an sickle on cover?
Alexor wrote:It's completely unfair to accuse the White Army of being behind the majority of pogroms,
" numbers from Nahum Gergel's 1951 study of the pogroms in Ukraine:
Of these incidents, about 40% were perpetrated by the Ukrainian forces led by Symon Petliura, 25% by the Ukrainian Green Army and various Ukrainian nationalist gangs, 17% by the White Army, especially the forces of Anton Denikin. A further 8.5% of Gergel's total figure is attributed to pogroms carried out by soldiers assigned to the Red Army."
German and Swedish villages being attacked and looted "pogrom-style" around Kherson and Nikolaiev by detachment of Anarchist and Red bands...
OneArmedMexican wrote:Come on people, this discussion - although led with decent arguments - is getting nowhere.
Would any of you really want to play a game which offers the option to order progroms?
And would you actually choose this option???
I used the word distasteful in another thread. However, here it doesn't seem strong enough.
AGEOD does an admirable work of simulating many aspects of war; however its darkest, most atrocious side cannot be simulated in an adequate way in a game, simply because it is a game.
We are talking about something that under todays laws would qualify as a crime against humanity. How could you possibly implement that as one or two mouse clicks and a tooltip in a computer game?
Gray_Lensman wrote:AGEod games are all about historical accuracy NOT political correctness. Pogroms though distasteful in the original setting are a form of attrition that add to the historical accuracy of the game design. It doesn't mean that AGEod would be endorsing such activities, just taking the attritional value into historical account in the game design.
Gray_Lensman wrote:Pogroms were not just directed against the Jewish population. They were also directed against the German population in Russia in 1915 and their effect game wise should be to lower the productivity of a region much like looting regardless of the ethnic group involved and the game design does not have to detail the specifics but just take into account the effects.
Gray_Lensman wrote:it doesn't offend me at all to have an historical game based on historical facts. You can't change history, only learn from it. Pretending things didn't happen or leaving them out of historical game designs is just a feeble attempt at rewriting history for political correctness purposes.
alexander seil wrote:On the other...people, this is a game where prodrazvyorstka (which, in real life, induced mass famine) and Cheka are standard tools in the Bolshevik arsenal
May I suggest that if ethical behavior by the player's forces is a moral concern to you, a game about the Russian Civil War, of all things, might not be for you?
EDIT: It reminds me of the doublethink on Paradox's HoI forums, where, on a forum about a game that explicitly lets the player order bombing of civilian objectives (in HoI3, complete with political repercussions, leaving no doubts about the implicit targets), you aren't allowed to discuss terror bombing. But as long as you call it "strategic bombing," it's just fine.
OneArmedMexican wrote:I am flabbergasted. Apparently, you actually want progroms in a video game.
My example was made to illustrate my point not as a proposal on how to best implement the slaughter of civilians in this game.
Seriously, do you really think a decrease in some ressources is an adequate way to explain atrocities?
Valid point, I can accept that - although I still disagree.
Believe me, I don't want to pretend progroms didn't happen. But a video game is not the right tool to tell of these tragedies.
And I don't think there is much danger the people playing this game don't already know about progroms, mass executions or starvation. My impression from this forum is that the average AGEOD gamer has solid historic knowledge.
Perhaps a better way might be to include a historic section in the manual or the scenario backgrounds.
Alexor wrote:That being said any simulation has to stay close to reality but at the same time being playable. There is absolutely no point for a "pogrom" function in-game...it should be represented by the general looting and chaos that was happening everywhere at the time.
Cat Lord wrote:There won't be progroms in the game from our side. They don't have value in military terms.
And this is a game. It must be fun, and children are going to play with it. Adding them is distateful.
В wrote:Pogroms had slight effect on outcome of war, but were not as big of a part of war as Red Terror. Cheka killed and affected more people. They killed families of people suspected of supporting 'counter-revolution' they facilitated famine to starve communities that not support Bolsheviks, forced conscription by killing those and families of those not join Army. Horrible, horrible crimes, on same level as pogroms against ethnicity, and this is represented in game - all be it abstractly, why is abstract representation of pogrom sick when abstract representation of Red Terror that killed far more people ok?
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