marcusjm
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The RCW history debate

Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:52 pm

[color="Blue"]This discussion was split of from a different thread, since it pertains to the historical events and context of the RCW - Rafiki[/color]
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I would say that this theme has far wider appeal to most compared to say ACW or American Revolution. This is after all one of the most debated political events in history.

Ask a random guy about the US Civil War and you will have a blank question mark on his head (at best they will remember North & South). Russian Revolution however, is known by everyone. It had catastrophic consequences for the World and more or less made WW2 possible.

I love the addition of the Finnish Civil War scenario as well, it was directly connected to this event. Those who know anything at all of history knows just how connected those events were. Both Lenin and Stalin held speeches there and even lived there.

Bring it on.

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:34 pm

As someone from the US, I would say the opposite marcusjm. I know I've learned a lot about the Russian Civil War just reading the forums (and making the game very interesting). So kudos to Ageod for picking this part of history for a game project.

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:12 pm

Cindel5 wrote:As someone from the US, I would say the opposite marcusjm. I know I've learned a lot about the Russian Civil War just reading the forums (and making the game very interesting). So kudos to Ageod for picking this part of history for a game project.


Yes but you are a wargamer, I mean normal people ;) . I have met many non wargamer Americans who at best acknowledge the event called Civil War. They are simply not interested. Everyone knows about what resulted in Soviet Union after all ;) .

My point was that the Russian Revolution more or less shaped the entire 20th cenutry, WW2, Cold War, War on Terror etc up to now. Few events had such catastrophic consequences. To my personal family as well (on the Finnish side). Of course it also drastically changed the ethnic composition of USA due to all refugees, it also had a direct impact on the political parties and their ideologies from the depression and up to now.

People always talk about what a bullet in Hitlers head would have meant. Imagine a bullet in Lenins head? Big relief ;) .

At the very least nobody can say that this even was meaningless. Few historic events can compare in importance.

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:26 pm

Though the fact that there was a Russian Revolution and a subsequent Civil War is common knowledge, the details of what followed the revolution, the events of the Civil War itself, are very seldomly known except probably in the areas directly effected by them. The course of the American Civil War is much more widespread knowledge in the west, especially in America itself.

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:22 pm

Raptor1 wrote:Though the fact that there was a Russian Revolution and a subsequent Civil War is common knowledge, the details of what followed the revolution, the events of the Civil War itself, are very seldomly known except probably in the areas directly effected by them. The course of the American Civil War is much more widespread knowledge in the west, especially in America itself.


But the knowledge of the inner workings of those civil wars are about equal I'd say, nobody or at least very few except historians/wargamers care about those. Those Americans I talked about weren't some morons but well educated people. Few actually care about such wars(especially when there are more current conflicts to worry about). We who visit these kind of boards are fairly unique.

I'd say that the political consequences are what matters to most. I am not sure a CSA victory would have had such dramatic consequences for the rest of World History(some obviously). A white victory would have changed everything that happened in the 20th century.

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:19 pm

marcusjm wrote:A white victory would have changed everything that happened in the 20th century.

They should have both lost. No Red gulags nor White pogroms.
"Democracies" helped the Whites only to forbid the Reds.
There should have been a war between allied democracies and the huge russian monarchy once the Whites had won: a WW2. I think nazies and fascists would have join the Whites, and they may have won the WW2...

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:23 pm

ERISS wrote:They should have both lost. No Red gulags nor White pogroms.


At any rate the history would have looked drastically different. Also note that there would never have been any white "pogromes" with no bolshevik revolution. They after all threw away the elected govt.

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:29 pm

marcusjm wrote: note that there would never have been any white "pogromes" with no bolshevik revolution.

There were already pogroms before the revolution, and it didn't change with the war as the Whites were always known as the bigger killers of jewish (until the nazi). EDIT: Sorry I'm wrong here, as Whites were not enough and busy fighting the Reds, they couldn't be the bigger pogromists, even they wanted to (their ideology was based on their okhrana book Protocol of Zion).

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:41 pm

ERISS wrote:There were already pogroms before the revolution, and it didn't change with the war as the Whites were always known as the bigger killers of jewish (until the nazi).


None of this however makes the events less epic. If anything the Bolsheviks increased antisemitism since most viewed Lenin as a Jewish person (also used heavily by a certain Austrian in his rethorics). Even today the revolution is largely blamed on the jews by eg. Latvians etc.

Nevertheless, without Bolsheviks there would have been no Nazis in power and thus the history would have looked drastically different anyway.

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Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:01 am

marcusjm wrote:Even today the revolution is largely blamed on the jews by eg. Latvians etc.

Yes, that's why: No reds nor whites.

marcusjm wrote:Nevertheless, without Bolsheviks there would have been no Nazis in power and thus the history would have looked drastically different anyway.

With your logic you can even say without the Whites (tsarists) there would have been no need for a revolution, so no Bolsheviks.

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Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:57 am

ERISS wrote:Yes, that's why: No reds nor whites.


With your logic you can even say without the Whites (tsarists) there would have been no need for a revolution, so no Bolsheviks.


Another reason why this game is good so people can learn. The question was not about the Monarchy, he already abdicated long before this war. It was Bolsheviks vs everyone else. Not everyone on the white side were even monarchists, there were Social Democrats for instance on the white side.

The White side only existed out of need, there was no white side prior to the Bolsheviks taking up arms against a democratically elected government. Just like in Finland (the first country to have female voting rights).

I am expecting Alexander Seil to show up and set people straight soon ;) .

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Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:09 am

Raptor1 wrote:Though the fact that there was a Russian Revolution and a subsequent Civil War is common knowledge, the details of what followed the revolution, the events of the Civil War itself, are very seldomly known except probably in the areas directly effected by them. The course of the American Civil War is much more widespread knowledge in the west, especially in America itself.


It's a pity then, Well russian revolution is the first practice(I can be wrong) of Marx studies. That practice had great impact also for western democracies. By giving more rights to workers or etc.. or social reforms.

It must be more global as it also questions the relation of man and religion. I imagine other areas of Europe including western part, knows better than North America.

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Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:35 am

Baris wrote:It's a pity then, Well russian revolution is the first practice(I can be wrong) of Marx studies. That practice had great impact also for western democracies. By giving more rights to workers or etc.. or social reforms.

It must be more global as it also questions the relation of man and religion. I imagine other areas of Europe including western part, knows better than North America.


No but it certainly pressured other governments to do more due to Bolshevik scare. I mean, Sweden already had started reforms before 1917 and in fact Russia itself had quite alot of reforms in 19th century.

It's easy to forget that Russia had their own home grown ideologes, namely Bakunin and Kropotkin. Both were more Anarcho Socialists but they inspired things like the first attempts at Communes in St.Petersburg. There are those who can give more detaile explanation.

Neverthelss. There is no doubt that the revolution in Russia put alot of pressure on alot of governments to do more.

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The RCW history debate

Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:55 am

Copied from http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?p=185469#post185469 and delted there:

marcusjm wrote:Another reason why this game is good so people can learn. The question was not about the Monarchy, he already abdicated long before this war. It was Bolsheviks vs everyone else. Not everyone on the white side were even monarchists, there were Social Democrats for instance on the white side.

The White side only existed out of need, there was no white side prior to the Bolsheviks taking up arms against a democratically elected government. Just like in Finland (the first country to have female voting rights).

I am expecting Alexander Seil to show up and set people straight soon ;) .


Err. Wrong! How about the attacks on the protesting workers in Petrograd in July by the Kerensky government and subsequent repression of the Bolshevik movement? What about Kornilov's march on Petrograd before the October Revolution? Both these events prompted an earlier Bolshevik Revolution than Lenin, Trotsky or any other revçolutionary cadre would have wanted. One major issue with the February Revolution was that Kerensky did not end the war with Germany, which end to war was after all one of the primary drives for revolution in the first place. Therefore a second revolution to enact the people's (workers, peasants, lower middle class) will was inevitable...
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Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:57 am

marcusjm wrote:But the knowledge of the inner workings of those civil wars are about equal I'd say, nobody or at least very few except historians/wargamers care about those. Those Americans I talked about weren't some morons but well educated people. Few actually care about such wars(especially when there are more current conflicts to worry about). We who visit these kind of boards are fairly unique.

I'd say that the political consequences are what matters to most. I am not sure a CSA victory would have had such dramatic consequences for the rest of World History(some obviously). A white victory would have changed everything that happened in the 20th century.


It's true that few people care about historical wars, but I'd say that the ACW is certainly better understood than the RCW, at least in the west. Of all the people I know, there are a few that know how the ACW played out, but none at all that I can think of that know about the RCW except for the revolution itself.

I completely agree that the RCW had much more of an impact on the course of history than the ACW, yet that doesn't make it a more popular subject. Take for example the Austro-Prussian War, this conflict had enormeous consequences on both the evolution of military weapons and tactics and the events of the 19th and 20th centuries, yet practically nobody except for historians and some wargamers know about it.

Baris wrote:It's a pity then, Well russian revolution is the first practice(I can be wrong) of Marx studies. That practice had great impact also for western democracies. By giving more rights to workers or etc.. or social reforms.


I think the Paris Commune would have that honour...

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Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:03 am

Well I guess the problem here is that we are talking about a subset of humans, the wargaming community, it is quite small as it is ;) .

Also, if you ask someone with east-european ancestry you might get a different answer. The tragic effects are still visible today allover Eastern Europe.

Here I am hoping/thinking that a game like this could attract the more general historical crowds though. Just like Paradox games have done. Paradox have sold quite a bit covering periods that few others did before. I think if done right then any period could sell. I also hope Vainglory comes out first and becomes a success, then this game would look like a logical next step.

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Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:06 am

Marcus, I think you mean "Pride", "PoN" or "Pride of Nations" ;)

In any case, this game will be released before PoN :)
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Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:08 am

caranorn wrote:Copied from http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?p=185469#post185469 and delted there:



Err. Wrong! How about the attacks on the protesting workers in Petrograd in July by the Kerensky government and subsequent repression of the Bolshevik movement? What about Kornilov's march on Petrograd before the October Revolution? Both these events prompted an earlier Bolshevik Revolution than Lenin, Trotsky or any other revçolutionary cadre would have wanted. One major issue with the February Revolution was that Kerensky did not end the war with Germany, which end to war was after all one of the primary drives for revolution in the first place. Therefore a second revolution to enact the people's (workers, peasants, lower middle class) will was inevitable...

You forgot this part http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menshevik

It is what made all the difference between Russia becoming a modern democracy and the hell they had to suffer (or even more so, their neighbours).

My main point was that the question of Monarchy(as it was before at least), was already over by the time of the Civil War so talking about royalists is just plain wrong. The Bolsheviks murdered the royal family to give people an early taste of the real murder that was to follow later.

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Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:13 am

[color="Blue"]Guys, you have a whole forum to use; no need in filling up the bibliography thread with something you can have a seperate thread for ;) [/color]
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Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:16 am

Rafiki wrote:[color="Blue"]Guys, you have a whole forum to use; no need in filling up the bibliography thread with something you can have a seperate thread for ;) [/color]


Why was it pasted here then? I didn't.

SUGGESTION : Move the last replies to a new thread.

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Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:19 am

marcusjm wrote:You forgot this part http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menshevik

It is what made all the difference between Russia becoming a modern democracy and the hell they had to suffer (or even more so, their neighbours).


In which way? The Mensheviks (indeed the majority of the then Social Democratic Labour Party, I will not dispute that) started to split up as early as 1904 (Trosky among others) and continued to split up in 1917 and throughout the Revolution and Civil War. They were certainly an important element in both Revolutions, but for the Civil War at the latest they were split on both sides of the Red/White divide...
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Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:19 am

I imagine you replied to caranorn's post without noticing where it was posted :)

In any case, moved to a seperate thread; I'll bring over more posts from the "other" thread :)

EDIT: There we go; things should be in order now
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Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:24 am

Rafiki wrote:Marcus, I think you mean "Pride", "PoN" or "Pride of Nations" ;)

In any case, this game will be released before PoN :)


I noticed the name change but forgot the title. Well at least I hope it doesn't take any resources from that title, it needs all the manpower it can get in my opinion.

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Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:27 am

caranorn wrote:In which way? The Mensheviks (indeed the majority of the then Social Democratic Labour Party, I will not dispute that) started to split up as early as 1904 (Trosky among others) and continued to split up in 1917 and throughout the Revolution and Civil War. They were certainly an important element in both Revolutions, but for the Civil War at the latest they were split on both sides of the Red/White divide...


Just compare with any Social Democratic system to see which way (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark etc etc).

They were larger than the Bolsheviks throughout(until made illegal of course), Bolsheviks were always a minority that used brute force to get their way through (see the article).

The situation was exactly the same in Sweden and Finland. Pro Bolshevik factions tried to split up the Social Democrats, in Finland it turned bloody but in Sweden the attempts were repelled. Not even sure about the Norwegian situation.

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Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:36 am

The Norwegian Labour Party was revolutionary at the start of the 20th century, but going into the 1920s it became more "mainstream" and distanced itself from the Russian revolutionaries to the point where it got excluded from Comintern in 1923. A fraction left the party and created what became the Communist Party, but they weren't numerous enough to make any large significance.
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Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:44 am

Essentially that split of the socialist movements into social democrats and communists (and further splits on both sides) happened in all European countries. Of course it did not always involve revolutions. In Russia (1903) the original split was a bit earlier than in most countries (1914+). But even today this splitting, re-merging etc. continues (in Germany you relatively recently had the SPD split into SPD and WASG which soon after joined with the PDS (which was the successor organisation of the East German SED) to form die Linke (the left), though all of those parties claim to be democratic socialists they largely disagree on the way to achieve said socialism...

This written by the oddball who calls himself Leninist-Trotskist ;-) ...

P.S.: I could probably write a book on the splits and reunifications within the Luxembourgish socialist movements. But who would want to read that? And who would remain sane afterwards?
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Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:10 am

marcusjm wrote:Well I guess the problem here is that we are talking about a subset of humans, the wargaming community, it is quite small as it is ;) .

Also, if you ask someone with east-european ancestry you might get a different answer. The tragic effects are still visible today allover Eastern Europe.

Here I am hoping/thinking that a game like this could attract the more general historical crowds though. Just like Paradox games have done. Paradox have sold quite a bit covering periods that few others did before. I think if done right then any period could sell. I also hope Vainglory comes out first and becomes a success, then this game would look like a logical next step.


Certainly it will be more known in Eastern Europe and Russia, not only because the effects of it are more apparent, but there would also be many more sources about it (Easier to find Russian sources on the RCW than English sources).

I love playing more obscure periods in history, which are often my favourite periods (WWI, the Victorian era and the Thirty Years' War, for instance), so I'm quite happy AGEOD is tackling things like the RCW.

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Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:36 am

Raptor1 wrote:Certainly it will be more known in Eastern Europe and Russia, not only because the effects of it are more apparent, but there would also be many more sources about it (Easier to find Russian sources on the RCW than English sources).

I love playing more obscure periods in history, which are often my favourite periods (WWI, the Victorian era and the Thirty Years' War, for instance), so I'm quite happy AGEOD is tackling things like the RCW.


Im not so sure about this "obscure" period in history only known by wargamers or eastern europeans. As well as said Paris Commune(I forget it:bonk :) and some interpretation of social democracy by northern europe plus some political parties influenced by social democracy or marx's studies, it looks it has wider influence and knowledge in Europa.

Michael More made a film about "capitalism". It was mainly critizing capitalism and some faults on the system in Usa. But in the end he was telling that unlike Italy or Germany, by ignoring social democracy resulted some bad social problems in Usa like health care or education. His opinion ofcourse.
But it looks like N. America knows better about ACW than RCW, some government cencor involved I guess.

I have read before about some research been made by Oxford University about capitalism and communism. Research was concluding that these mixtures of different system was forming another system called "social democracy". I hope it is more known :) than ACW.

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Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:49 pm

caranorn wrote:In which way? The Mensheviks (indeed the majority of the then Social Democratic Labour Party, I will not dispute that) started to split up as early as 1904 (Trosky among others) and continued to split up in 1917 and throughout the Revolution and Civil War. They were certainly an important element in both Revolutions, but for the Civil War at the latest they were split on both sides of the Red/White divide...



Well this is why I said it was wrong to label the Whites as "royalists", it was a coalition of many wills vs basically Bolsheviks. When the intervention came then I suspect many switched sides due to pure patriotic reasons. I have no numbers though.

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Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:52 pm

Rafiki wrote:The Norwegian Labour Party was revolutionary at the start of the 20th century, but going into the 1920s it became more "mainstream" and distanced itself from the Russian revolutionaries to the point where it got excluded from Comintern in 1923. A fraction left the party and created what became the Communist Party, but they weren't numerous enough to make any large significance.


So very close to the Swedish situation, maybe due to the recent Union, I suspect the parties had good communications?

Estonia more or less mirrored the situation in Finland btw.

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