history_buff3737
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Victory For Poland during White Campaign

Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:24 am

Hi,

I have been thoroughly enjoying playing the White Autumn campaign and just as I was able to consolidate my hold over Southern Russia and start my drive north and west, a "Victory for Poland" event took place and suddenly I lost most of my provinces and my troops were magically transported to north of Crimea and cut off by the newly formed Ukraine from Rostov and the rest of the war (since that territory became impassable). Since this is historically inaccurate (one of the reasons why the White movement failed was because of their unwillingness to cooperate with the new states due to their "Russia One and Indivisible" belief and AFSR would have never given up control of of provinces that they control to Ukrainian nationalists because of a treaty signed by a government they didn't recognize), is there a way to change this? Can a save game file be edited? Can anything be done to prevent the triggering of this event? I am really curious to finish the campaign, but it's pretty much unplayable for me at this point.

Many thanks in advance!

PS: I capture Kharkov the same turn and hold Ekatirinoslav: could that be the trigger as per the Polish Soviet War scenario?

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ERISS
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Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:45 pm

history_buff3737 wrote: playing the White Autumn campaign just as I was able to consolidate my hold over Southern Russia and start my drive north and west, a "Victory for Poland" event took place and suddenly I lost most of my provinces and my troops were magically transported to north of Crimea and cut off by the newly formed Ukraine from Rostov and the rest of the war (since that territory became impassable). Since this is historically inaccurate (one of the reasons why the White movement failed was because of their unwillingness to cooperate with the new states due to their "Russia One and Indivisible" belief and AFSR would have never given up control of provinces that they control to Ukrainian nationalists because of a treaty signed by a government they didn't recognize) Can anything be done to prevent the triggering of this event?
I capture Kharkov the same turn and hold Ekatirinoslav: could that be the trigger as per the Polish Soviet War scenario?

You should already see some explainations here:
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?42075-Epic-Western-White-Campaign-A-Post-Mortem&p=365952&viewfull=1#post365952

" their 'Russia One and Indivisible' belief, AFSR would have never given up control of provinces that they control to Ukrainian nationalists because of a treaty signed by a government they didn't recognize "
But the threat of being at war with Red Russia, all Ukranians (Nationalists AND Anarchists), and Poles (or at least Poland backing ukranians with weapons, supply and money) in same time surely would make them ponder a while (then leave those Ukranian areas, strategic for the Poles)..

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andatiep
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Sun May 01, 2016 1:59 pm

I will need your saved game file of a turn before it happen to check if there is a problem on this small campaign scenario and how you could turn it around to continue your campaign as you wish.
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history_buff3737
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Mon May 02, 2016 4:27 pm

That would be phenomenal, many thanks! The trigger makes absolute sense in the 1920 Polish-Soviet war scenario, but in my case I'd argue that the White cause is too strong to contemplate the surrender of the territory which is vital for their long term survival. Plus, in my game, the Eastern Whites are still very strong and presumably the Allies would apply some pressure to Poland not to attack the Whites during their struggle with the Reds.

My suggestions for a permanent fix in White campaigns are a diplomatic decision (lose access to Ukraine, but be at peace with the Ukrainian nationalists and Poland) or changing the trigger rules: Kiev, Minsk, Kharkov and Ekaterinoslav must be held by Poles or Ukrainian nationalists to cause Victory for Poland event (as opposed to the Reds losing control of these cities).

I've attached my saved game of the turn preceding the event.

Again, many thanks - if possible, it'd be great to continue my campaign. :thumbsup:

PS: I am playing RUS Gold
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AZ3.zip
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ERISS
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Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm

history_buff3737 wrote:in my case I'd argue that the White cause is too strong to contemplate the surrender of the territory which is vital for their long term survival. Plus, in my game, the Eastern Whites are still very strong and presumably the Allies would apply some pressure to Poland not to attack the Whites during their struggle with the Reds.
My suggestions for a permanent fix in White campaigns are a diplomatic decision (lose access to Ukraine, but be at peace with the Ukrainian nationalists and Poland) or changing the trigger rules: Kiev, Minsk, Kharkov and Ekaterinoslav must be held by Poles or Ukrainian nationalists to cause Victory for Poland event (as opposed to the Reds losing control of these cities).

Good ideas.

"lose access to Ukraine, but be at peace with the Ukrainian nationalists and Poland"
You mean "Keep access to Ukraine, and be at war with all Ukraine backed by Poland (supply, or at war too), and lose all support from France." :)

history_buff3737
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Mon May 02, 2016 8:04 pm

Thanks!

Yep:

Option A: Lose access to Ukraine, but be at peace with the Ukrainian nationalists and Poland. Option A can also result in loss of White officer support through commander resignations, dissent, NM penalty, a falling out with Kolchak: whichever mechanic would reflect it best (and keep the game balanced).
or
Option B: Keep access to Ukraine, and be at war with all Ukraine backed by Poland (supply, or at war too), and lose all support from France.

Sorry, should have expanded on it in my original post.

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Tue May 03, 2016 12:11 pm

history_buff3737 wrote:Thanks!

Yep:

Option A: Lose access to Ukraine, but be at peace with the Ukrainian nationalists and Poland. Option A can also result in loss of White officer support through commander resignations, dissent, NM penalty, a falling out with Kolchak: whichever mechanic would reflect it best (and keep the game balanced).
or
Option B: Keep access to Ukraine, and be at war with all Ukraine backed by Poland (supply, or at war too), and lose all support from France.

Sorry, should have expanded on it in my original post.


The support of Western power is more important for the Russian Whites than for the Poles. And the Poles don't care of foreign support if victorious in 1920. Once all the Polish army where well equipped by the French governement, they don't listen to it. Many time during the year 1919 the Frenchies ask their ally Poland to stop fighting Ukrainians, Balts, and Czech troops, especially with the weappons they gave them. Poles didn't care of it and fix their northern and southern borders with battles and military pressures. I doubt that a Victorious Poland in the East which face weak Russian Reds ready to sign peace in their West will listen anybody that ask them to let Russian Whites troops in the territories the Reds let them. A Polish victory is a fact that happen or not, it can't be an option. In geopolitics, there could not be any peace treaty between two sides if one of the side let a third side battle the other from its own territory. And Poland objective in 1920 is to fix its last international border in the East, not to save the Russian Whites which anyway will oppose sooner or later to the borders the Poles whish.
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andatiep
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Tue May 03, 2016 12:21 pm

history_buff3737 wrote:changing the trigger rules: Kiev, Minsk, Kharkov and Ekaterinoslav must be held by Poles or Ukrainian nationalists to cause Victory for Poland event (as opposed to the Reds losing control of these cities).


The current situation was chose to avoid tricky plans to avoid the Polish victory to happen. If the Whites avoid in purpose to take one last city required, the AI managing any Green, Black, Ukrainian Nationalists troops could take it.

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Tue May 03, 2016 12:31 pm

history_buff3737 wrote:
I've attached my saved game of the turn preceding the event.

Again, many thanks - if possible, it'd be great to continue my campaign. :thumbsup:

PS: I am playing RUS Gold


I won't support anything but the RUS Gold version :-)

You attached saved game files are not all here. I need all the files.

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Tue May 03, 2016 3:46 pm

andatiep wrote:there could not be any peace treaty between two sides if one of the side let a third side battle the other from its own territory

So it goes not really against what hBuff3737 proposed:
Before the event giving complete victory to Poland, an event could first ask the Whites if they want to oppose it.

If they let the complete Poland victory (almost: Poland 'gently' let Krimae), then it goes as at now in RusGold.

If they oppose it, then Poland could take a partial victory (not reaching Black sea), to make peace with Reds in order to better be able to manage the White problem and try to have later their complete victory.
But I feel it can't be easily simulated with the game engine.

history_buff3737
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Tue May 03, 2016 7:53 pm

Many thanks again!

Here is the link to all of the files for that turn:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=B6AE5A92FEAF202A!107&authkey=!AC5FK9ai-2bYO7U&ithint=file%2czip

I think that Denikin would have never accepted an independent Ukraine (plus, he was essentially at war with Petlura), Vrangel was desperate enough to consider it, but it's hard to say what' he'd do if he was in position of strength. Petlura didn't trust him and wasn't too keen on cooperating with him. Plus, we just cannot be sure if the Allies would cut off support to the victorious Whites or if Poland would fight another war to support an independent Ukraine (given the National Democrats' opposition and what happened at the Peace of Riga). As fascinating these historical what ifs are, the bottom line is that the current event trigger makes the White campaign anticlimactic and in my game I'd prefer to fight a war with Poland rather than lose Eastern Ukraine. So, if there is an event like ERISS describes, which would give the player the option to decide, then it would be great. At the same time I understand all of the considerations of balancing the game that you both mentioned. Thanks!

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Sun May 08, 2016 8:29 pm

ERISS wrote:So it goes not really against what hBuff3737 proposed:
Before the event giving complete victory to Poland, an event could first ask the Whites if they want to oppose it.

If they let the complete Poland victory (almost: Poland 'gently' let Krimae), then it goes as at now in RusGold.

If they oppose it, then Poland could take a partial victory (not reaching Black sea), to make peace with Reds in order to better be able to manage the White problem and try to have later their complete victory.
But I feel it can't be easily simulated with the game engine.



I maybe wasn't clear, but IMHO, there is NOTHING to ask to the Whites since Poland would NOT have ask them anything. Poland didn't care of the Russian Whites interests. And Imperialist Poland was ready to fight Russian Whites imperialists in Ukraine to make it a Polish puppet state (as they did with their other neighbours in 1919), and Ukrainian Nationalists had also no problem to fight Russian Whites to get their independence from Russian (better Polish rules than Russians for them at those times).

So if Poland sign a Victorious peace treaty with the Reds, Russian Whites are not at the negotiation table, for sure. Reds would have let to Poland/Ukraine territories, even if they don't control some of it because they are occupy by Russian Whites or Ukrainian Anarchists. And Poland and Ukrainian Nationalists would then have send all their forces against any Russian or Anarchists forces in East Ukraine to control their borders, pushing the Russian Whites in Crimea or Don sector.

ERISS wrote: If they oppose it


There is no way that Russian Whites could oppose all the Polish army (and their Ukrainian Nationalists army), free from any Red menace, as well as the big part of the local population which was anyway against them in this regions as Green, Black and Red fans.


history_buff3737 wrote:I think that Denikin would have never accepted an independent Ukraine (plus, he was essentially at war with Petlura), Vrangel was desperate enough to consider it, but it's hard to say what' he'd do if he was in position of strength. Petlura didn't trust him and wasn't too keen on cooperating with him. !


Again, what the Russian Whites want to do here are not the question, the question is what the Poles would have done.

history_buff3737 wrote:Plus, we just cannot be sure if the Allies would cut off support to the victorious Whites


As i said, Poles didn"t care of the Western powers reaction of their imperialism in Ukraine and possible stop of support : they were already equipped by France which would anyway support them more than the Russian Whites because Poland is important for France to keep Germany surrounded and watched.

history_buff3737 wrote:in my game I'd prefer to fight a war with Poland rather than lose Eastern Ukraine
Maybe some stupid Russian whites leader would have fight Poland in priority, but they would have lose anyway and be pushed to Crimea or Don when the Reds would have invade it in their back, with numerous troops coming from the former Polish/Soviet fronts...
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ERISS
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Mon May 09, 2016 5:39 pm

andatiep wrote:Poland and Ukrainian Nationalists would then have send all their forces against any Russian or Anarchists forces in East Ukraine to control their borders, pushing the Russian Whites in Crimea or Don sector.

There is no way that Russian Whites could oppose all the Polish army (and their Ukrainian Nationalists army), free from any Red menace, as well as the big part of the local population which was anyway against them in this regions as Green, Black and Red fans.

Maybe some stupid Russian whites leader would have fight Poland in priority, but they would have lose anyway and be pushed to Crimea or Don when the Reds would have invade it in their back, with numerous troops coming from the former Polish/Soviet fronts...

It is to be explained ingame (again), for we're in a wargame and the white player is forbidden from playing this.
" What? The Whites are allowed to fight the so big Red army which were believed to win against Poland, but are not allowed to fight against the said feeble Poles that would not have win without us? so the Whites seem have their chances against Poland. "

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Tue May 10, 2016 6:00 pm

ERISS wrote:.... against Poland. "


...Poland and ...the list of other enemies listed above including the Reds... That wouldn't be interesting to play a slaughter.
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Tue May 10, 2016 6:19 pm

history_buff3737 wrote:Many thanks again!

Here is the link to all of the files for that turn:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=B6AE5A92FEAF202A!107&authkey=!AC5FK9ai-2bYO7U&ithint=file%2czip

I think that Denikin would have never accepted an independent Ukraine (plus, he was essentially at war with Petlura), Vrangel was desperate enough to consider it, but it's hard to say what' he'd do if he was in position of strength. Petlura didn't trust him and wasn't too keen on cooperating with him. Plus, we just cannot be sure if the Allies would cut off support to the victorious Whites or if Poland would fight another war to support an independent Ukraine (given the National Democrats' opposition and what happened at the Peace of Riga). As fascinating these historical what ifs are, the bottom line is that the current event trigger makes the White campaign anticlimactic and in my game I'd prefer to fight a war with Poland rather than lose Eastern Ukraine. So, if there is an event like ERISS describes, which would give the player the option to decide, then it would be great. At the same time I understand all of the considerations of balancing the game that you both mentioned. Thanks!



To delay the Poland Victory event, open the file .../Matrix Games/Revolution Under Siege Gold/RUS/Events/RUS Poland Auto DOW.sct

Go to the line of the event starting with the line :
StartEvent = evt_nam_POL_PolishVictory|1|2|evt_txt_POL_PolishVictory|Event-img_Renforts_POL_PolishVictory|$Warsaw|NULL

and change the date of this line :
MinDate = 1920/01/01


I look at your game. The Polish AI defeated the reds in the Western front and did enter deep in Central Russia theater. So all Polish troops get the huge malus of cohesion because they are out of their objective. That is to say that the game is design to have the Polish Victory event to happen especially when you fight with/against AI.

As allied of the Eastern White side, you can see most of the Polish troops on the map. Just imagine that all this troops are not at war with the reds anymore and all turn their guns towards your Southern White troops in East Ukraine while your are still at war against the reds (including their troops facing Poland previously... I doubt you could keep saying during a middle term " I'd prefer to fight a war with Poland rather than lose Eastern Ukraine" ;)
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ERISS
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Tue May 10, 2016 10:40 pm

andatiep wrote:As allied of the Eastern White side, you can see most of the Polish troops on the map. Just imagine that all this troops are not at war with the reds anymore and all turn their guns towards your Southern White troops in East Ukraine while your are still at war against the reds (including their troops facing Poland previously... I doubt you could keep saying during a middle term " I'd prefer to fight a war with Poland rather than lose Eastern Ukraine" ;)

That's your best answer. It ingame must be made clear like that, that this reallity would even enter in the narrow haughty Denikin head, always underestimating all his opponents (and belittleing his few allies).

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