AGEOD Forums

Several times now, I have had armies locked into combat which fought over several turns until one side was basically destroyed. Just now, I had a 60,000 man Red army attack Minsk against a 50,000 man Polish army in the Polish-Russian war. The Poles were entrenched and inflicted maybe 12,000 casaulties vs the poles loss of maybe 6,000. So I needed to withdraw the remaining 50,000 man Red army. Even though both armies were in the Minsk district, the Reds had zero percentage military control of Minsk. So they could not remain in Minsk with a defense order. The defense order will automatically change to an attack order because they have no military control within the region and the Reds will continue attacking until destroyed. So I decided to give the Red army a passive order, evade combat and withdraw from Minsk. When I ended the turn, no combat occured and the Red army was attempting to exit the regiion. However the movement order showed it would take an additional 58 days to leave Minsk in addition to the 15 days already used.

So first, why doesn't a 60,000 man army, vs a 50,000 man army in the same district, not gain some military control of the region? Maybe enough to allow them to use a defensive order and not have to withdraw or attack?

Second, why does it take 58 days plus the 15 days already used to exit the region using the passive order?

As I am writing this post, I seem to vaguely recall reading somewhere that you need to leave a unit in your original region from which the attack was launched to ensure a retreat if necessary? Is that true?

Jagger2013 wrote:So first, why doesn't a 60,000 man army, vs a 50,000 man army in the same district, not gain some military control of the region? Maybe enough to allow them to use a defensive order and not have to withdraw or attack?

It sounds as though you entered the region with the 50K pole army already there, so you wouldn't have gained a lot of MC upon your arrival. Also, if you lost the previous battle and were automatically set to passive, then your army lost any chance of gaining/sustaining MC for much of that turn. They would have bled away most or all of your MC. But if there was any left, when you put your army on passive that continued your giving up no contest to gaining or sustaining MC versus the Poles. They will gain MC as though your force was not in the region at all. It is for this reason that I use Def/Withdraw as the Posture/stance (not sure if correct terminology) with evade.

Jagger2013 wrote:Second, why does it take 58 days plus the 15 days already used to exit the region using the passive order?

That does seem excessive. Most of the time I see this, I am trying to leave with some unit that should stay stationary, but you entered Minsk, so that wouldn't be the case. Do you have partisan units in your stack? They will slow you down (though not that much). Are you retreating into deep forest in the rain with heavy artillery while your cohesion is at zero? That might do the trick.

Jagger2013 wrote:As I am writing this post, I seem to vaguely recall reading somewhere that you need to leave a unit in your original region from which the attack was launched to ensure a retreat if necessary? Is that true?

Strictly speaking that is not correct. It is true that a unit left in the original region will help keep the MC high enough (if enemy units are moving around) so that you don't have your movement blocked by enemy zone of control. You also need at least 5% MC to retreat into a region. But there are no rules that favor moving towards a friendly unit when retreating. (As opposed to a region with a town/depot/fort/where you came from.)

It is for this reason that I use Def/Withdraw as the Posture/stance (not sure if correct terminology) with evade.

The problem with using the Def/Withdraw is lack of military control in the region. The withdrawing unit's defend command automatically switchs to attack because military control is zero. Which means the unit constantly attacks until destroyed rather than retreating out of the region. I have been able to use the passive command to avoid combat and retreat.

Are you retreating into deep forest in the rain with heavy artillery while your cohesion is at zero?

The unit was retreating across a river into that forest and lake region opposite Minsk. Pretty rough terrain probably played a role in slow movement but no partizans or heavy artillery present. Many units were very low cohesion after the battle loss which I believe also slows movement of formations.

It is true that a unit left in the original region will help keep the MC high enough (if enemy units are moving around) so that you don't have your movement blocked by enemy zone of control.

I wonder if zone of control was playing a role or not. I was able to retreat with a passive command. I don't think that would have been possible if zone of control had been lost to the defending formations.

Although I wonder if it might be possibly for attacking units to so badly lose a battle such that they also lose ZOC in surrounding regions-which would then prevent retreat into surrounding regions. In which case, units left behind to ensure region military control would be helpful.