AGEOD Forums

Too many generals killed in RUS.
Loss of 1-2 out of 10 generals, involved in the battle, - common occurrence. Often, in small skirmish, single man, who was killed, is general.

In the ACW loss of general was quite rare event, which enlivens the game. In RUS - it is real disaster.

In reality, in RCW (as well as in WWI) death on the battlefield was common among comanders of battalions and regiments, who often lead they men in battle in the forefront of them. But division commanders in that period does not led the attacks on the white horse in front of they division. So, there are only few generals was killed or died of wounds in RCW.

This raises an interesting topic, one that needs to be commented on by someone with period specific research in hand.

Napoleonic generals got killed and wounded with some frequency, even if you take Lasalle's famous quote with an enormous grain of salt ("Tout hussard qui n'est pas mort a trente ans est un jean-foutre"). They all weren't hussars, Lasalle himself made it to thirty-four, and figuring out the etymology behind jean-foutre can be quite the research project. But when Napoleon's marshals turned on him in 1814 they were feeling their age and getting tired of dicing with death on the battlefields of Europe.

By the middle of the 19th century generals weren't seen on the front line all that often, but still managed to get themselves killed and wounded with some regularity, partially because people hadn't gotten used to the deeper danger zones implied by the increased ranges of mid-century weapons, and partially, I suspect, because the methods of command and control weren't really any different from what they had been at the start of the century. They could still get themselves killed even if they tried to hang back a bit, but probably couldn't hang back far enough to be safe without losing what little control they had over the situation.

Jumping forward another fifty years to WW I and technology has changed everything. The kill zone is much, much deeper, but a general can sit a long ways behind the front and try to control things with wireless, field telephones, and couriers, some of whom are motorized. But this only works well in an orderly and 'stable' environment like the western front. In a fluid situation such as the Russian Civil War you wouldn't have the luxury of laying out the telephone lines, and given the political nature of what was happening I suspect that the troops couldn't be led by officers who stayed out of harm's way.

So if I had to guess, I would guess that the mortality of generals was greater in the Russian Civil War than in WW I as a whole, but less than it was fifty years earlier.

I would love to see someone's comments who has some more solid mortality statistics on this -- anecdotal evidence isn't always that good for building models. And of course, the causes of mortality would have to be looked at as well -- I'm sure some generals died by firing squad or exposure to the elements. Another way of doing it, I suppose, would be to simply make a list of the generals present in the game and compare it to a list of the ones that were actually killed in action.

Yeah, I'd love to see some facts and statistics on this. Trying to find info on even major generals is sometimes hard for non-Russian speakers.

As for the OP's concerns, the generals dieing in battles with no other friendly casualties is annoying, but they told me it was an engine limitation. The "general death" variable fires at the beginning of combat or something like that.

Ok, so this post does not have facts or statistics; however, these statistics on the Revolution are not as readily available as for other, more conventional, wars.

From our perspective 100 years later, we cannot recover battle deaths with any accuracy, because of the Cheka and Commissar contribution to "battle" deaths. Trying to figure Confederate battle deaths in the American Civil War is an easier task.

There is a messiness to RUS times. I will return to the forum with more specific data, but alternative causes to leader deaths and need to be factored into battle deaths. My perspective, leader death in the game is much below historical totals.

OK. I am not a military historian, but only a humble fan of military history. And RCW not the only area of my interests there. But i have quite a lot books about RCW, and I even have read some of them. RCW is not semi-legendary ancient conflict. There is very many documents and memories of participants (both "white" and "red"). And them not destroyed by evil CHEKA-NKVD-KGB. Many of them was published. But in Russian, of course.

Philippe wrote:So if I had to guess, I would guess that the mortality of generals was greater in the Russian Civil War than in WW I as a whole, but less than it was fifty years earlier.

Tend to agree with this statement. There was in vast majority of cases maneuverable and highly intensive military operations. And generals of RCW much more often observed the battle and managed its course not from safe place in the rear by phone, but being slightly behind the battle lines, from some place with a good view of battlefield. But the cases, when general was located in the zone of effective enemy fire, was rather the exception, than the rule. Roughly the same can be said about cases, when the general himself led his men to the attack - exception in infantry, rather the exception, than the rule in cavalry.

Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne wrote:
As for the OP's concerns, the generals dieing in battles with no other friendly casualties is annoying, but they told me it was an engine limitation.

Well, that's very sad in such case.

As for some statistic regarding the represented in the game generals, does not pretend to absolute completeness, I can report the following. Refinements are welcome, but unlikely they are able change the picture dramatically.

Reds:
-Chapaev - killed in night assault in deep rear by raiding white cossack detachment.
-Sievers - died of wounds.
-Sapozhkov - rebellion against the reds, routed, killed in close combat in small final clash.

Whites:
-Kornilov - infantry commander, killed by an artillery shell in the headquarters room.
-Markov - infantry commander, killed by an artillery shell during controlling of the battle from the open position.
-Drozdovsky - infantry commander, led the attack, light bullet wound in the leg. Died under suspicious circumstances.
-Martynov - Ataman of Ural Cossack Host, led the attack, mortally wounded.
-Babiev - cavalry commander, killed by a stray artillery shell.

There are still 3-4 White and Red general (most of which is cavalrymen), killed and died of wounds, but they are not represented in the game.

p.s. Sorry for poor English.

İf they are not dead in battlefield Stalin should punish them all, they are all dead in the end sooner or later anyway!
In game turns I think Division, cavalry commanders can have high death rates but not the Corps or army generals maybe. If there is excess Red & White commanders it will serve the game well; as the game balance is not referring the Reds as superior right now with means of production and leadership, it will be good welcome.

Baris wrote:İf they are not dead in battlefield Stalin should punish them all, they are all dead in the end sooner or later anyway!

Almost all.
Stalin followed the saint Lenin lessons, were you can kill 100 innocents to hope killing 1 bad boy (but he applied it to the Party too, not only to people).
That's the commie 'Kill them all, God will keep the good ones'.

From a pure game play perspective I agree with Old Fenrir.
I think far too many Generals are killed, the AI especially seems to love killing off the (few) 2 star White officers.
Currently playing as RED and most of my good 1 star officers have now been whacked by the AI (by mid 1919).

I'm observing that too. Many, many dead Generals. Even army commanders are among them. In my current game Frunze and Gai Khan are KIA. Blucher, one of my best corps commanders KIA.
Maybe I'm wrong, but i think there must be a file which determines the probability of killing a general. The idea is, to manipulate the file and make more generals survive.
Does that file exist and where ?

cestus wrote:I'm observing that too. Many, many dead Generals. Even army commanders are among them. In my current game Frunze and Gai Khan are KIA. Blucher, one of my best corps commanders KIA.
Maybe I'm wrong, but i think there must be a file which determines the probability of killing a general. The idea is, to manipulate the file and make more generals survive.
Does that file exist and where ?

Yes, there is such a file:

Revolution under Siege --> RUS --> Settings --> GameLogic.opt

in **** Combat **** section

cbtLdrCasuDiceSides = 500 // Nb of sides for the casualty dice for rank 1 leaders, at the end of combat (twice as low for rank 2, rank 3 excluded)


Bump the number up to lessen the chances of leaders dying.

I noticed with interest that there is another reference in that same file to the chance of leaders dying:

ldrDeathBySickness = 0 // leaders can die from sickness, old age, or practices better not discussed here.

Philo32b wrote:Yes, there is such a file:

Revolution under Siege --> RUS --> Settings --> GameLogic.opt

in **** Combat **** section

cbtLdrCasuDiceSides = 500 // Nb of sides for the casualty dice for rank 1 leaders, at the end of combat (twice as low for rank 2, rank 3 excluded)


Bump the number up to lessen the chances of leaders dying.

I noticed with interest that there is another reference in that same file to the chance of leaders dying:

ldrDeathBySickness = 0 // leaders can die from sickness, old age, or practices better not discussed here.

The death chance parameter in GameLogic is deprecated, thus has no effect.
Death by sickness requires many parameters to be added to work. [it's designed for PON]

In any case, the values for leader death are in each Model file for each leader, as parameter CombatDeathChance where a value of 100 = 1%

lodilefty wrote:The death chance parameter in GameLogic is deprecated, thus has no effect.
Death by sickness requires many parameters to be added to work. [it's designed for PON]

In any case, the values for leader death are in each Model file for each leader, as parameter CombatDeathChance where a value of 100 = 1%

Since the chance to die in combat varies depending only on what is defined in the Model file, I take it that there is no varying of the chance depending on what rank the leader is, such as the GameLogic file indicated: twice as low for rank 2, rank 3 excluded.

If that is right, that is a bit unfortunate, as I would imagine that how close a leader is to the action would have an effect on their chance to die.

Old Fenrir wrote:Too many generals killed in RUS.
... Often, in small skirmish, single man, who was killed, is general.

Is AGEOD working on a Vietnam era game? Because its sounds to me like they are correctly simulating "fragging".

In revolutionary times, such as the times this game occurs in, surely it must have occurred to a few soldiers that a well placed bullet into a general would otherwise save a lot of other casualties that he and his fellow soldiers were about to incur.