Synchronized Move Order

[Emx77]

Sometimes, Adaptive Game Engine (AGE) is driving me crazy . In this case situation is that in Kotka region I have Finland Army (6.887 men, 4.667 horses, 24 cannons) and Lofstrom' Corps (13.353 men, 4.174 horses, 40 cannons). I want to cross Saimaa Canal to put Viipuri under siege (see figure below).



In order to ensure that Army and Corps come at same day and fight together I ordered "Synchronized Move Order" to both Army and Corps. Also I put both formations in Defensive posture with ROE "Hold at all costs".

However this is what happened:



Questions:

1. Why they arrived at different days in target region despite "Synchronized Move Order"? Manual says that Subordinate Corps and Army HQs in the same region would move together at the pace of the slowest force.

2. Why Finland Army retreated before battle despite "Hold at all costs" ROE? This contradicts manual which says that Force with "Hold at all costs" ROE will never attempt to retreat.

NOTE: Same behavior is observed with Offensive posture and "All out attack" ROE.

[Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne]

Dunno, why they arrived on different days. I'm assuming the corps is part of that army and not a different army?

As for #2, when you move into a region with <95% enemy military control, your forces switch over to offensive automatically. Then I'm guessing they saw overwhelming odds and retreated. There is no "Hold at all costs" on offensive posture.

[Emx77]

Dunno, why they arrived on different days. I'm assuming the corps is part of that army and not a different army?

Yes, the corps is part of that army. Both (Army and Corps) have full cohesion, ammo and supply.

As for #2, when you move into a region with <95% enemy military control, your forces switch over to offensive automatically. Then I'm guessing they saw overwhelming odds and retreated. There is no "Hold at all costs" on offensive posture.

Sorry, but there is "All out attack" in Offensive or Assault posture. In that case: "A Force will not attempt to retreat during the first two (2) combat rounds of a battle. The chances of attempting a retreat are reduced during subsequent combat rounds (Manual, p. 76). Here, Finland Army is retreating before battle regardless of posture and ROE, which shouldn't happen. IMO, either manual is wrong (some unmentioned rule, perhaps) or it is a bug.

BTW, I hope that this issue will be clarified because in similar situations it can be a difference between victory or defeat. In single player you can reload turn but in PBEM this would be game braking thing (a least for me).

[Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne]

The not retreating in the first 2 hours might only mean if combat is engaged. Also, when it switches over from defensive to offensive, it might revert the stance to normal. I don't use all out attack that often.

[Pocus]

Sometime synchronized move don't work, this is rather uncommon but has been seen before (perhaps 2% of the case). I know that when it arrives, it can screw things badly, but the code is quite complex already on that and hours of peeking at it the last time led to no bug spotting, sorry.

As for the retreat with the ROE, I need to check the reason why...

[Emx77]

Sometime synchronized move don't work, this is rather uncommon but has been seen before (perhaps 2% of the case). I know that when it arrives, it can screw things badly, but the code is quite complex already on that and hours of peeking at it the last time led to no bug spotting, sorry.

As for the retreat with the ROE, I need to check the reason why...

I tested this a little bit more and came to interesting results. On figure bellow you may see two different routes which can be used for attack on Viipuri. First one is direct Kotka -> Viipuri route (solid line arrow), where Army and subordinate Corps need to pass over Saimaa canal before attack. Second one is indirect route Kotka -> Laappenranta -> Viipuri (dashed line arrow).



Synchronized Move observations

In case of direct route (solid line), Army and Corps will never come at same date in Viipuri. But if we use indirect route (dashed line) they will always come at same date and fight together. Only explanation is that when attacking across river synchronized move order doesn't work.

ROE and Posture obseravtions

If you load my save game (in attachment) and choose direct route, Army with Assault posture and "All out attack" ROE, will retreat before combat as described in my previous posts. This is in conflict with meaning of "All out attack" as described in tooltip and manual. Where things are starting to get even more mysterious is if you do following:

1. Order Army and Corps to attack via indirect route (Assault, All out Attack, Sync Move). They will come at same date fighting together as expected.

2. After that, reload your turn and order attack via direct route (same posture and ROE settings). Army and Corps will come at different dates but this time Army will not retreat before combat as before! So, simple fact of reloading turn changed Army behavior. I'm not sure what is happening here and why. Save game is attached and it will be interesting to see if other players are able to replicate this.

Other observations

During testing I witnessed that on one occasion Mannerheim (Commander of Finland Army) died during battle (reported in message and battle log). However, at beginning of next turn he is alive and well, still leading Finland Army.

[ERISS]

During testing I witnessed that on one occasion Mannerheim (Commander of Finland Army) died during battle (reported in message and battle log). However, at beginning of next turn he is alive and well still leading Finland Army.

If you use the tutorial, I think that is intended.

[Emx77]

If you use the tutorial, I think that is intended.

It is scenario "Finish Civil War", not tutorial.

[andatiep]

Jebiga, druze Emx77 iz Sarajeva...
Sta ima kod tebe ?

You can also go in the options to change the delay of engagement when entering in a region.

Don't forget (especially you ERISS for our next PBEM ) also that if you give to your stacks a railroad transport capacity, they will have much more chance to come as a reserve. Nice trick for a defensive front with 2 regions linked with a railroad.

[Emx77]

Jebiga, druze Emx77 iz Sarajeva...
Sta ima kod tebe ?

You can also go in the options to change the delay of engagement when entering in a region.

Don't forget (especially you ERISS for our next PBEM ) also that if you give to your stacks a railroad transport capacity, they will have much more chance to come as a reserve. Nice trick for a defensive front with 2 regions linked with a railroad.

Thank you for tips and tricks. And thank you for great game

[H Gilmer3]

Don't forget (especially you ERISS for our next PBEM ) also that if you give to your stacks a railroad transport capacity, they will have much more chance to come as a reserve. Nice trick for a defensive front with 2 regions linked with a railroad.

What does that mean? Are you talking about a march to the sound of the guns situation (even if they aren't part of the army?) from a neighboring province, if you just click their rail movement button?

I'm still learning the engine (and probably won't ever learn everything.

[andatiep]

What does that mean? Are you talking about a march to the sound of the guns situation (even if they aren't part of the army?) from a neighboring province, if you just click their rail movement button?

Yes, Reserve feature = March to the sound of the guns.
So i'm still speaking about 2 forces from the same army (let's say, one army in a region and one corps in an other). To get involved in the same battle if one of them is attacked, you have different bonus and malus which increase the chance to make it happen. One of it is a malus per days to reach the other region. But if you clicked the railroad transport capacity for them, they will have only one day to go in the other region. So the reserve feature is almost always working in this case...

I'm still learning the engine (and probably won't ever learn everything.

Here we are, the living manual...

[W.Barksdale]

Note here that my experience is limited to AACW. I too have noticed that the synchronized move does not work properly particularly when one or more of the associated stacks are inactive. Personally I thought it modelled some of the unactivated leaders and resulting confused orders quite well. Still, your stacks appear active so I can't rule out the possibility that your observation about crossing rivers is valid. Perhaps some of the beta teams can test this out further if there is time.

[Durk]

My take, synchronized move only works if all units are active and in the same area. Otherwise, not a tactic to use. If Army commander is active, this helps others join, but not a guarantee.

March to the sound of guns is totally dependent upon leader quality and unit organization. If good leader and well organized, arrive soon. If poor leader or command penalty, sit and wait.

[Pocus]

To Emx77 and others. Thank for the detailed report about the Synch move and ROE discrepancies. This is something I should look upon (this is a AGE core feature, so not a problem particular to RUS). I can't guarantee any delay though, so be a little patient!

[Highlandcharge]

So there is something wrong with the core code with the AGEOD march to the sound of the guns/synchronized movement?

I noticed that I had 2 battles in RUS with an army that had 2 full strength corps in an adjacent region, my army HQ and another corps took a total battering but never once in the called up the 2 other corps to help, could that be the bug?

Also, is this bug in all the AGEOD recent patches?

[Highlandcharge]

Anybody?

[lodilefty]

You are discussing two different things:

Synch movement only works for commands you give:

Synchronized move: If in the same region, the army HQ and all subordinate corps will move together (at the pace of the slowest corps). Note: This is selected by default. In addition, when the army HQ moves, all subordinate corps in the region will automatically synchronize without needing to use this special order.

This function has nothing to do wiith Combat/March to the guns. It is WAD in the other games I've been playtesting (ACW, RoP)

March to the guns is Combat reaction, and is subject to probabilities. It will only work for Corps (of same Army I think?), and is not a certanty.

Army = Defined as an Army HQ (Leader choice icon)
Corps = Defined as a Corps in an Army (Leader Choice icon)

See this (AACW document, but same rule)
http://www.ageod.net/aacwwiki/Manual:Combat_in_the_field

And the Values for RUS:

resBaseChanceOff = 100 // Base chance if in Offensive posture
resBaseChanceDef = 90 // Base chance if in Defensive posture
resCostPerDay = 10 // -10% for each day of marching
resCohCostPerDay = -1 // -1 cohesion for each day of marching
resModAdjGHQ = 10 // +10% if adjacent to army HQ
resModIsGHQ = 25 // +25% if the army HQ itself
resModLeaderStrat = 5 // +5% for each pt of strat factor of the leader
resControlChunkMod = 5 // Every 5% of MC lacking gives -1% chance (both for start and end region)

So which do you think is not working?

[Pocus]

I'm pretty sure all the MTTSOG code is working well, as Lodilefty says, this is subject to probability.

Synchronous move is another piece of code, and yes, there must be a bug lying in it. It does not happen that often, but it does, and when it does, generally people are not really happy to lose a battle...

[Highlandcharge]

Thanks for getting back to me, is the Sync movement problem just in RUS, or is it in any other games?

[MadBaron]

My take, synchronized move only works if all units are active and in the same area. Otherwise, not a tactic to use. If Army commander is active, this helps others join, but not a guarantee.

March to the sound of guns is totally dependent upon leader quality and unit organization. If good leader and well organized, arrive soon. If poor leader or command penalty, sit and wait.

Hi guys,

I totally agree with you, I recently discovered with too much pain, that only ACTIVE corps in the same area can follow sync movement order...If you don´t trust on you corps commander´s activation capacity, just mix your troops in one stack... Reds love to destroy your corps one by one while they try to move backwards without following that order

Greetings from Siberia