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TheDoctorKing
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"Blocked by enemy positions in the countryside"?

Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:02 pm

What's up with this message?

In my current game, I have Stalin with about 1000 strength points of troops advancing along the rail line from Tzaritsyn to Novocherkassk. He has fought and defeated a small White force, which remains in the region. He is trying to move on, set on "assault", and the engine won't let him move. Not only that, but he loses all military control in the region and can't gain any more, even if I let him sit there on "assault" for a couple of turns. This has happened in a couple of other games of this I've played and the only solution is to have him leave the region by the way he entered and then re-enter. In that case, he will again seek battle with the enemy force and, if he wins, the usual course of events takes place - the enemy retreats, he gains military control of the region, and can move onwards. Is this WAD?
Stewart King

"There is no substitute for victory"

Depends on how you define victory.

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lycortas
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same

Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:18 pm

I see the same thing and in my case there were not even any White troops nearby. Just Stalin 850 combat power, same region, and can't move forward.
Can't hold military control.

Mike

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TheDoctorKing
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Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:29 pm

It's not just Uncle Joe, btw. I had it happen with Bonch-Bruevich on the northern front near Pskov. He advanced from Novgorod, fought a battle in the region just to the east of Pskov, then tried to advance into Pskov. The enemy was retreating, and he could neither fight them nor advance. He gained no MC - it stayed at 100% White. After about three turns, I did the move out and come back thing, and it worked, so I turned the clock back three turns, did it the turn after the battle, and it worked fine. In that case, since he wasn't hauling around any dang useless armored trains, it only took like five days to ride the train back one region and then walk back into the target region and he could go on into Pskov on the same turn.

For the poor Don Front under hapless Joe S, on the other hand, the whole rigamarole cost me three turns - he had to go back and return to the target region and then advance one more region (one turn), rest and recover org and bring up supplies (since he had been sitting in an area that was 100% enemy MC I guess he couldn't draw supplies - I had to send him a couple of carts from Tzaritsyn), then cross the river and assault Novocherkassk (three turns).
Stewart King



"There is no substitute for victory"



Depends on how you define victory.



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Pocus
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Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:38 pm

Hi guys. I have been attracted by the thread's name... If there is an issue, then it is in the engine itself, not in RUS... Do you have a save around (and backup1...) ?
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TheDoctorKing
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Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:16 am

I think these are the right ones. Backups from several turns ago, sorry. If you don't see Stalin "blocked by enemy positions in the countryside" along the rail line between Tzaritsyn and Novocherkassk then I'll try again.
Stewart King



"There is no substitute for victory"



Depends on how you define victory.



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TheDoctorKing
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Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:03 am

Did you ever figure this one out?

I noticed it again in a game I was playing as the Whites.

Boy it sure is annoying how slow those armored trains travel in enemy-controlled territory!
Stewart King



"There is no substitute for victory"



Depends on how you define victory.



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Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne
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Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:03 pm

I'm running into the military control problem. I'm playing as the Siberian Whites. In the province just south of Irkutsk, the MC started switching to Red and no matter what forces I put there, it doesn't move back from 92% communist control. They also tear the rail whenver I repair it. It's almost like there's a big ghost force holding it or something. I can post saves if you want to look at it.

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Pocus
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Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:25 pm

I remember having the same problem in my (now aborted) PBEM. There is indeed an unspotted partisan force here... Bring units with detection rating of 4 and perhaps recon plane, and wait for the weather to be fair... You should spot them.
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

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Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne
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Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:53 pm

Pocus wrote:I remember having the same problem in my (now aborted) PBEM. There is indeed an unspotted partisan force here... Bring units with detection rating of 4 and perhaps recon plane, and wait for the weather to be fair... You should spot them.


The wierd thing is that MC stays at 92%. It doesn't go up when I leave or down when I put 20k men there. I think I moved a Japanese division through the province right when it started screwing up. Could've been some kind of faction bug?

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TheDoctorKing
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Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:44 am

Pocus wrote:I remember having the same problem in my (now aborted) PBEM. There is indeed an unspotted partisan force here... Bring units with detection rating of 4 and perhaps recon plane, and wait for the weather to be fair... You should spot them.


But why should that undetected partisan be able to prevent a large force of tens of thousands of men from gaining MC? I would think that if two hostile forces coexist in a territory they ought to gain or lose MC in proportion to their strengths and postures.
Stewart King



"There is no substitute for victory"



Depends on how you define victory.



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ERISS
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Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:16 pm

I don't see bug:
TheDoctorKing wrote: why should that undetected partisan be able to prevent a large force of tens of thousands of men from gaining MC?

It does prevent total military CONTROL as the large force can't totally control the region.
It does not prevent the gain: If the MC was 8%, the large force would increase it to 92%.
I would think that if two hostile forces coexist in a territory they ought to gain or lose MC in proportion to their strengths and postures.

Yes, until the MC of region reach their force ratio.
If the large force can't totally control the region, I don't think it could have 100% MC...

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TheDoctorKing
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Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:57 pm

In my situation, the MC level remained at zero. This happened to me a couple of times, with large friendly forces that could not move on from a region because their MC remained at zero turn after turn despite an apparent absence of enemy troops. If you left the region by the route you entered and returned, then MC was gained normally (i.e., usually in one turn or less). In one case, I was even able to go on through the region in question once I left and returned (so after spending several turns trying to advance into Pskov from the adjacent region, I restored the original turn I entered there, did the leave and come back move, and was able to continue that move right into the Pskov region).

I don't think it has anything to do with partisan presence. Both times I was playing the Reds and I don't think the Whites had any partisans in those regions. Having played the CG as the Whites, I never got any partisans in those areas.
Stewart King



"There is no substitute for victory"



Depends on how you define victory.



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Baris
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Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:17 pm

Sorry it's a bit old thread but frequently asked. In a Pbem game I suspect sneaky partizan force halting movement in the same region. MC is 100% for 3 turns but still can not move Ekaterinodar to assault with Southern Whites which is 1 region away and clear weather.
Pocus wrote:it can happen if an undetected force is there, terrain by itself won't halt your movement. To work around this problem, of sneaky troops halting movement, there is a chance to gain MC% control if you have good odds, even without battle.

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Krot
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Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:37 am

Baris, Old Fenrir in his last post concerning our current PBEM said that both White players seemed too cautious to him and illustrated it with Ekaterinodar example you wrote about. I'd advise you to ask Old Fenrir directly about this situation. Maybe we should introduce some house rule to prevent such things.

Baris
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Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:18 pm

Hello Krot, I've informed Old Fenrir yesterday. Have read this thread and the one in here:
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?30369-Blocked-by-Positions-in-the-Countryside

Whites have more mobile units with high 'patrol&detect' values especially in early campaign. Couldn't find explanation where an army mostly composed of cavalry can be stopped in this case with 100% MC and clear weather. Is the supply wagons,engineers etc in the stack limiting movement?

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Krot
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Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:48 pm

It is really weird. I remember similar things happened in my previous PBEM couple of times when I tried to move my Red forces. In both cases that were stacks with Front commanders. I guess that maybe Army/Front HQ stacks tend to get in such troubles somehow.

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Old Fenrir
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Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:13 pm

Baris wrote:Sorry it's a bit old thread but frequently asked. In a Pbem game I suspect sneaky partizan force halting movement in the same region. MC is 100% for 3 turns but still can not move Ekaterinodar to assault with Southern Whites which is 1 region away and clear weather.


Yes, I confirm. Baris is right, there is a partisan unit in the region. What, as it turned out, was blocking offensive of Whites.

In my old games, at times, this problem has occurred - when a small group blocked the movement of a large stack, and even battle did not happen. It would be correct if the blocking movement happened at the meeting with a stack of comparable size. When the large army blocked by a tiny unit - it's really weird.

homet
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Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:43 pm

A very similar happened to my partner and me in a completely different game (AJE). There, single cavalry units which are difficult to detect can block entire Roman armies attempting to move through regions. We found a work around which involved having a single cavalry unit moving out in front of the main force or separating from the main force into the region in which the force was stuck. That seemed to do the trick. I don't know if something similar would work in RUS.

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Hobbes
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Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:48 pm

I've had the same problem in AJE. A huge roman army stuck in a region for months with no obvious enemy. Nobody to attack. It's quite frustrating.

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Franciscus
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Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:11 pm

For AJE, this will be hopefully fixed in next patch... :)

(although some tests are to be made - In there, the cause seems that some units (light inf, skirmishers) have too high hide values - almost undetectable, specially if a small stack and bad weather)

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andatiep
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Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:36 pm

All Partisans' units HideValue are currently set to 4, when cavalry units are only set to 2 ...Maybe the best value for Partisans would be 3 (they hide better than cavalry but maybe not twice better, and finally it will make them more detectable).
We will try with a Hidevalue at 3 in the next patch. Please Beta testers keep this in mind to report such behaviours, which could be a real problem since Green and Red Partisans pop up fast according to the loyalty changes...

Besides this, it is normal than a force, even enormous, can have this kind of problems if they don't have any scoutting/cavalry units. If you're blind, expect to be slow... :cool:
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Franciscus
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Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:56 pm

FYI:

In AJE the hide value of light infantry and skirmishers were 5, while regular infantry only 1. Regular cavalry on the other hand have a detect value of 3.
Also, Pocus told me that the hide value gets a bónus of 1 if the stack is small, and further bonus if weather is bad.
So we will try with a hide value of 2, instead of 5

Regards

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andatiep
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Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:00 am

Franciscus wrote:Also, Pocus told me that the hide value gets a bónus of 1 if the stack is small,


Mmmh. And Partisans' units are almost everytime alone... So it's always a +1.

Let's set it to 2 also, like in AJE.

Thank you... :)
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Baris
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Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:41 am

Excellent thanks. :)

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TheDoctorKing
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Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:08 am

None of this addresses the feature that I discovered - if you leave and come back into the region, you gain MC normally. Also, if you don't, you can remain for months without gaining any MC at all.

For me, this has become a normal fact of life in the game, and I know what to do when it happens.

Oh, and are we doing anything about how slowly armored trains move in regions with high enemy MC? This makes me pretty much never build any, and concentrate the ones I get to start in stacks designed to run along rail lines in my rear areas blowing up Greenies.
Stewart King



"There is no substitute for victory"



Depends on how you define victory.



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andatiep
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Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:25 pm

TheDoctorKing wrote:Oh, and are we doing anything about how slowly armored trains move in regions with high enemy MC? This makes me pretty much never build any, and concentrate the ones I get to start in stacks designed to run along rail lines in my rear areas blowing up Greenies.


Mmmmh. lonely Armored train already enter in enemy region faster that a stack with chariots. We can't make it faster than cavalry. They still have to advance in enemy territory along a single tiny way large as 3 meters :D .
And as you should see in the Beta, you will soon need your Armored trains to bring supply to remote fronts (but on the way you could still blow Greenies like bufallos from the wagons windows if you wish...:neener :) .
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Philo32b
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:45 am

TheDoctorKing wrote:Oh, and are we doing anything about how slowly armored trains move in regions with high enemy MC? This makes me pretty much never build any, and concentrate the ones I get to start in stacks designed to run along rail lines in my rear areas blowing up Greenies.


I was surprised by this. With their very high patrol rate, armored trains in my games are perfect for switching over enemy MC on railroad areas to my faction's MC. If I run a couple along an unopposed 100% MC enemy railroad track, they easily pave a <25% railroad path for my invasion force by just moving along, taking 2-3 days per area. The only negative to this is if I run into a firm defensive position that kills my trains. They are so NM costly. But given the risk I might want to take, I thought this area of the game worked well.

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ERISS
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:11 am

Philo32b wrote:With their very high patrol rate, armored trains in my games are perfect for switching over enemy MC on railroad areas to my faction's MC. If I run a couple along an unopposed 100% MC enemy railroad track, they easily pave a <25% railroad path for my invasion force by just moving along, taking 2-3 days per area.

Trains should not have high patrol rate. They should not give MC: the troops in, should be who give the MC. In a low MC region, trains can't go fast if they stop often to let its troops do the control of the region (they have to dangerously go far from the rails).

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Philo32b
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:54 am

But troops do not have to go dangerously far from the rails to secure control of the rails (in the absence of an opposing army), and securing control of the rails is what permits the army following the armored trains to travel at railway speed.

I had also thought that most of the important infrastructure was close to the railways, which was what permitted the Bolsheviks so rapid an expansion in the early railway war (late 1917-early 1918). But I have by no means any claim to expertise in the Russian Civil War.

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ERISS
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Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:08 am

What is badly done in the game, is that MC number is both for railroad and its region: they should be different.
Or okay, an alone train can give MC, but only up to few max %, as it can't leave its railroad to control the region.

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