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Nikel
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Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania

Fri May 08, 2009 12:56 pm

What happened with the polish in the SYW?

By this time existed and entity called Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth


The king was the same of Saxony, and apparently he was not very interested in his east territories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_III_of_Poland


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By situation and because of the "union" with Saxony they should have been involved in the war.

The history of Poland in this period is included here, but not a lot to comment regarding the SYW. After the war started the called Poland partitions that ended with the disappearance of Poland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland_(1569%E2%80%931795)


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And the only polish troops that appear to be involved were this?


[ATTACH]7647[/ATTACH]

http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm


So how what will be the role in the game of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth territories, a mere entry point of the russian armies? Will polish units appear in the game?



Edit: pictures very too huge
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Rzeczpospolita_Rozbiory_3.png
sax_uhlan.jpeg
480px-King_Augustus_III_of_Poland.jpeg

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Sol Invictus
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Fri May 08, 2009 2:34 pm

I believe that Poland-Lithuania was to a large degree uder Russian dominance. Russia essentially decided who would sit on the throne and made sure it was to be their puppet. I forget what year it was exactly but by the beginning of the SYW the union of the thrones of Saxony and P-L were just a reality on paper. Prussia still used Poland as a source for horses and grain throughout the SYW and Russia had no difficulty using Polish land as a bridge into East Prussia and further so it was really not a military factor.
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Florent
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Fri May 08, 2009 2:52 pm

Yes the border was violated more than once by the Russian Army on their way to Prussia, and as you said yhe Prussians bought horses.
The exception at least for the Russians is that Dantzig was closed by the Poles as a base forcing the Russians to withdraw for Winter on their borders in 1757 until Königsberg was taken and thereafter they withdraw on East-Prussia. This is why Colberg or Küstrin are important since they allow supply and base of opérations.
Unfortunately for the Russians, they took Colberg too late.
Hope that the supply system will simulate this war well. ;)

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Florent
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Fri May 08, 2009 2:54 pm

But a card driven games, Clash of Monarchs published by GMT in August has a special card for a Diplomatic coup to open Dantzig thus it is possible via historical research to simulate this.

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Nikel
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Fri May 08, 2009 5:42 pm

OK, thanks for the answers :)


I wonder why the polish were so passive in that time, AFAIK they have always been good warriors that loved their country :dada:

Florent, how is that the polish could close Dantzig to the russian armies but not the bulky of their country? Just diplomacy?


In the wikipedia-like site Poland is not listed in the nations, but there are some details of troops in the saxon army. Hope they appear in the game :w00t:

http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Saxon_Army

Uhlanen or Tartars

Graf Renard

Graf Rudnicki

The Uhlanen were maintained by the Polish Republic and hired into Saxon service. They participated in all campaigns from 1757 onwards. Initially with the Austrian armies, later on with the Reichsarmee in Saxony. After the death of king August III, they were returned to Poland. Two Pulks were kept on Warsaw's provisions budget in March 1757. Each Pulk had 6 Hoffahnen (court-banners), 1 banner counting 75 men. They were especially recruited in Lithuania and from Tartars. It seems that their tactical role was to scout and skirmish in support of saxon chevaulegers.

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Florent
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Fri May 08, 2009 6:13 pm

I have not much books about this, it is more about the harbor that was closed preventing Russian ships to bring supply and the fortress wasn't besieged i think.
Actually i have more information about the military campaigns for Zorndorf etc...
There is a book in France published recently about Elysabeth 1st of Russia, i intend to buy it to have more information about this death-duel between Fred and her.
Fred called her "The Beast", but actually she was a great sovereign being the first in a civilized country to have abolished capital punishment and improved women conditions. Catherine was more despotic and have more to do with serfdom.
This book is certainly interesting.

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Hohenlohe
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Sun May 10, 2009 2:56 am

As I remember from some books I had read in the past years even the Prussian had some Tartars or Uhlans in their service.But I do not know if this was the case during or only after the SYW.
Perhaps some of you have some more informations on this topic...

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Sun May 10, 2009 8:54 am

http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Saxon_Army

This site shows Fürst Lubomirsky regiment also. Is it Polish?
Their commander surname looks Polish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubomirski_family


HHFD50
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Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:45 pm

Florent wrote:I have not much books about this, it is more about the harbor that was closed preventing Russian ships to bring supply and the fortress wasn't besieged i think.
Actually i have more information about the military campaigns for Zorndorf etc...
There is a book in France published recently about Elysabeth 1st of Russia, i intend to buy it to have more information about this death-duel between Fred and her.
Fred called her "The Beast", but actually she was a great sovereign being the first in a civilized country to have abolished capital punishment and improved women conditions. Catherine was more despotic and have more to do with serfdom.
This book is certainly interesting.


Actually, I read once that he referred to her more profoundly as the "wicked bitch of the north"? I do not know if this is true or not, but least the story was somewhat corroborated in the 1990-91 mini series "Catherine the Great", where Frederick played by Maximilian Schell called her word for word minus wicked in the script.

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H Gilmer3
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Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:52 am

runnersan wrote:http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Saxon_Army

This site shows Fürst Lubomirsky regiment also. Is it Polish?
Their commander surname looks Polish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubomirski_family


Yes, the Lubomirski family was a Polish family. Their history is intertwined with the history of Poland from the 1100s to at least 1918. Please look up Lubomirski family in Wikipedia.


I know this post is old, old, old. But no one ever answered. :)
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JacquesDeLalaing
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Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:30 am

Indeed the role of Poland is not really tackled in any account of the Third Silesian War. Iit needs to be mentioned that Poland theoretically remained neutral during the Third Silesian War. It suffered a lot from the Prussia-induced coin-debasement and from armies (esp. Russian) marching through the country. As to how Poland could stay neutral even though it was ruled by the elector of Saxony, I don't know. Probably the king lacked power vis-a-vis the strong magnates and the szlachta, so that he could not gain support for his "personal"/dynastic struggles? It seems that the only kind of troops that Poland "contributed" to its king's (who fled to Warsaw with his court after the debacle at Pirna) war-effort were - as it has already been mentioned - two "pulks" (as the regiments are called) of uhlans, each consisting of roughly 6 "banners" of 60-80 troopers equipped indeed in the "traditional" style with spears, sabres, pistols, bows and bulky pants. Other than that: Did Poland even have a standing army? I guess not?
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Herr Doctor
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Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:31 pm

JacquesDeLalaing wrote:Indeed the role of Poland is not really tackled in any account of the Third Silesian War. Iit needs to be mentioned that Poland theoretically remained neutral during the Third Silesian War. It suffered a lot from the Prussia-induced coin-debasement and from armies (esp. Russian) marching through the country. As to how Poland could stay neutral even though it was ruled by the elector of Saxony, I don't know. Probably the king lacked power vis-a-vis the strong magnates and the szlachta, so that he could not gain support for his "personal"/dynastic struggles?

There are some reasons. First, the memory of August III's father adventure in Livonia that pushed the country into the absolutely unwanted war and complete disaster in every possible way (military, economical, demographic, political etc) was still alive. In order to avoid the repeat of similar events, basically everything was done to keep neutrality by all costs, even despite many neighbour incidents between "friendly" Russian units stationed in Greater Poland and some Prussian "raids" there. Secondly, it was only two dozens years after the Polish Succession war and position of August III in Poland wasn't that strong really, considering the endless rambling political intrigues of the magnates. His son Friedrich Christian's election in Poland wasn't granted too. Any military involvement of Poland could quite easily trigger anti-Saxon/anti-government confederation formed (most probably lead by Potocki magnate family) and backed by Prussia and her allies. Even for August's position it was wiser to keep Poland-Lithuania out of war.

JacquesDeLalaing wrote:Other than that: Did Poland even have a standing army? I guess not?

Yes, it had standing regular army after the Silent Sejm of 1717. It was extremely small, especially considering the neighbours, but at the same time modern, trained and well equipped in compare to previous epoch, but under quite poor command in general. The established "portions" of the army were 18.000 for Poland ("the Crown") and 6.000 for Lithuania, i.e. something around 24.000 in common.

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