Russian Supply and Super Long Battle Questions

[elxaime]

Hi -

My brother and I were doing the 1756-1763 campaign and ran into two issues we wanted to raise here and see what people thought.

First - we have noticed that the Russian Army as it advances from initially taking Konigsberg from the Prussians, cannot build depots along the way in neutral Polish territory. The rules state that you cannot build a depot unless you have 51 percent or more military control, but you cannot change the military control of the neutral Polish zones. As a result, unless the Russians just try and leap across to Prussian, Swedish, Austrian etc. territory (where they can build depots) they are stymied making a supply line across Poland. We understand the game tries to model difficulties the Russians possessed in supplying their armies far from home. But when we look at the subsequent year campaign scenario set-ups, e.g. 1759, we see that the starting Russian forces in those scenarios have built depots in the very Polish territories that they cannot do so in the campaign starting in 1756. What is going on here? We would like to play the campaign from 1756, but the Russian supply situation has us scratching our heads.

Second - we have had several big battles, e.g. between 150,0000 Austrians versus 100,000 Prussians, that have gone on with day after day fighting for WEEKS. We had a fight at Konigratz where in a single 15 day turn, 12 of the 15 days were a battle. This seems more like World War One. The history we have read shows a few battles that went on a couple of days, but not really beyond that. Is this the way it is supposed to be? We thought most of the battles were one to two day affairs. In our long fight both sides had retreat routes, but they just stayed in the same zone week after week whittling each other down.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts. Also, if the above situations are WAD, can an explanation be provided so we can understand what is happening and adjust the way we play? Any advice on strategics, tactics and settings to make things work the way intended are welcome.

[Narwhal]

First question : are you using the latest 1.03a patch ? I remember it solved both the supply situation AND long, long battles (or it makes them exceptional)

[elxaime]

Yes, we were using 1.03a.

[Narwhal]

First - we have noticed that the Russian Army as it advances from initially taking Konigsberg from the Prussians, cannot build depots along the way in neutral Polish territory. The rules state that you cannot build a depot unless you have 51 percent or more military control, but you cannot change the military control of the neutral Polish zones. As a result, unless the Russians just try and leap across to Prussian, Swedish, Austrian etc. territory (where they can build depots) they are stymied making a supply line across Poland. We understand the game tries to model difficulties the Russians possessed in supplying their armies far from home. But when we look at the subsequent year campaign scenario set-ups, e.g. 1759, we see that the starting Russian forces in those scenarios have built depots in the very Polish territories that they cannot do so in the campaign starting in 1756. What is going on here? We would like to play the campaign from 1756, but the Russian supply situation has us scratching our heads.

As I rarely play the Russians, I cannot help. I believe the Polish cities give supply willingly if you stop an army there, and supplies go through Polish territory, so you need a depot before and after. It is still quite difficult, I understand.

Second - we have had several big battles, e.g. between 150,0000 Austrians versus 100,000 Prussians, that have gone on with day after day fighting for WEEKS. We had a fight at Konigratz where in a single 15 day turn, 12 of the 15 days were a battle. This seems more like World War One. The history we have read shows a few battles that went on a couple of days, but not really beyond that. Is this the way it is supposed to be? We thought most of the battles were one to two day affairs. In our long fight both sides had retreat routes, but they just stayed in the same zone week after week whittling each other down.

This is only possible in one case : both players are in "at all cost" ROE (the most extreme) AND the place where the battle takes place allows for only very limited frontage, which means very few units commit in the battle and both commanders suppose that they have enough troops "fresh" to carry on. I know of three places where that can happen : the Eastern Prussia moors (and probably the marshes), the Hessian forests (esp. in winter) and any mountain (but why would anyone fight there).

[elxaime]

As I rarely play the Russians, I cannot help. I believe the Polish cities give supply willingly if you stop an army there, and supplies go through Polish territory, so you need a depot before and after. It is still quite difficult, I understand.



This is only possible in one case : both players are in "at all cost" ROE (the most extreme) AND the place where the battle takes place allows for only very limited frontage, which means very few units commit in the battle and both commanders suppose that they have enough troops "fresh" to carry on. I know of three places where that can happen : the Eastern Prussia moors (and probably the marshes), the Hessian forests (esp. in winter) and any mountain (but why would anyone fight there).

Thank you for the replies.

On the Russian supply issue, we understand about the Polish cities (and where they exist, Polish depots) providing supply to anyone on them. But there is a contradiction among the various campaign scenarios on where the Russians can build depots. The 1756 campaign scenario seems to severely restrict this, but then when you open up the campaigns that start from later dates you see the Russians starting with depots built in those very Polish areas that they cannot affect military control - and the Russians in those later campaigns are given military control of 100 percent in a number of "neutral" Polish areas. Right now, if you start a campaign game in 1756, you simply cannot do the things the Russians are set up as in later year campaign starts.

On the endless battle issue, the problem we had was in Konigratz, which is an objective hex. It would seem that, even if both sides are given "at all cost" ROE they would stop at some point. Units are just fighting endlessly, destroying themselves, for dozens of consecutive days of battle. If this is bound to happen in any restricted terrain area where both sides choose "at all cost" ROE then something is wrong with the model. Units don't seem to be retreating when routed, they are just being eliminated.

[Narwhal]

Thank you for the replies.

On the Russian supply issue, we understand about the Polish cities (and where they exist, Polish depots) providing supply to anyone on them. But there is a contradiction among the various campaign scenarios on where the Russians can build depots. The 1756 campaign scenario seems to severely restrict this, but then when you open up the campaigns that start from later dates you see the Russians starting with depots built in those very Polish areas that they cannot affect military control - and the Russians in those later campaigns are given military control of 100 percent in a number of "neutral" Polish areas. Right now, if you start a campaign game in 1756, you simply cannot do the things the Russians are set up as in later year campaign starts.

It is a good point. I am more and more heading toward making a mod for ROP, and this is added to the list. This is after my mod for WiA, though The one I procrastinated.

On the endless battle issue, the problem we had was in Konigratz, which is an objective hex. It would seem that, even if both sides are given "at all cost" ROE they would stop at some point. Units are just fighting endlessly, destroying themselves, for dozens of consecutive days of battle. If this is bound to happen in any restricted terrain area where both sides choose "at all cost" ROE then something is wrong with the model. Units don't seem to be retreating when routed, they are just being eliminated.

The battle model has been reviewed lately, as the battles used to be too bloody for the historical period. I have not seen the situation in Koeniggratz, but this is game breaking since whoever wins this battle will prolly lose the game. Last question : is it the Prussian that is getting defeated and defeated, and are all his retreat roads cut (for instance, the passes behind Koeniggratz being shut due to winter).

Could you post the main file of the game - I will have a look if you allow me.

[elxaime]

It is a good point. I am more and more heading toward making a mod for ROP, and this is added to the list. This is after my mod for WiA, though The one I procrastinated.



The battle model has been reviewed lately, as the battles used to be too bloody for the historical period. I have not seen the situation in Koeniggratz, but this is game breaking since whoever wins this battle will prolly lose the game. Last question : is it the Prussian that is getting defeated and defeated, and are all his retreat roads cut (for instance, the passes behind Koeniggratz being shut due to winter).

Could you post the main file of the game - I will have a look if you allow me.

The battle lasted almost six weeks, with both sides having enough time to get reserves from other areas on the march to join the slaughter. At first Prussia was winning, and the morale went 130/80 for Prussia. Then reinforcements from Vienna arrived and it swung back to 110/115 with a series of Prussian defeats. Things were slowing down since both sides were fighting with 0 cohesion and I think it probably would have ended only because Austria was out of supply. Both sides had retreat routes (the mountain pass was not snowed in) but neither side was retreating. It was very much like Verdun 1916.

I will try to send you the file of the endless battle. How do I do that?

[lodilefty]

Saved games are sent thus:
http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Send_Saved_Game

[Philo32b]

Saved games are sent thus:
http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Send_Saved_Game

If you're using Vista or Windows 7 the save folder may appear empty. The Wiki describes how to find the save folders here: http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Vista_Saved_Games

For some reason, my configuration didn't match the Wiki's. Just in case yours is like mine, this is the route I took with Windows Explorer:

c: -> Users -> Owner -> AppData (needs View All Hidden Files enabled, via Tools/Options/View) -> Local -> VirtualStore -> Program Files (x86) -> Paradox Interactive -> Rise of Prussia -> ROP -> Saves

[elxaime]

Here are the files

[loki100]

On the Russian supply issue, we understand about the Polish cities (and where they exist, Polish depots) providing supply to anyone on them. But there is a contradiction among the various campaign scenarios on where the Russians can build depots. The 1756 campaign scenario seems to severely restrict this, but then when you open up the campaigns that start from later dates you see the Russians starting with depots built in those very Polish areas that they cannot affect military control - and the Russians in those later campaigns are given military control of 100 percent in a number of "neutral" Polish areas. Right now, if you start a campaign game in 1756, you simply cannot do the things the Russians are set up as in later year campaign starts.

Hi I can't talk for the later starts but as Narwhal's favourite victim for PBEM, I've had a fair bit of experience with the Russians.

In the 56 scenario, you can, within Poland, city hop, on the cities (usually Esping/Danzig) you seem to be immune to supply problems. In the same light note that city in the SW of Poland (not got game open at the moment, but I think its Poznan?), if you want to help an Austrian attack towards Bautzen/Glogau, that can be useful.

I then build a level 2 depot in the first Prussian province west of Danzig and a level 1 depot in the province east of Kolberg. Plenty to supply 2 decent sized corps in the Kolberg siege (& you can keep a large cavalry corps back at Danzig in case of a Prussian army turning up). This works, at least in the sense that I don't end up with the Russians falling apart due to supply issues.

More generally, if you are looking for tips/strategy et al, check out some of the AARs, there are quite a few on these boards and more on the Paradox AAR forum (for a listing of the AGEOD-based games there check this out). Although its for an older patch, Narwhal's Learning from Prussia is a masterclass in both gameplay and explanation/orientation.

[elxaime]

This is helpful, but still leaves open the question of why the Russians set up in the later start campaign scenarios has them with a depot chain through Polish areas that they are prohibited from building in in the 1756 start campaign. If it is intended to simulate the Russian supply situation by forcing them to "hop" across Poland, then why is this differently simulated in the later start scenarios? It would seem consistent to either do it one way or the other. A Russian in the later start scenarios has a depot line through central Poland that gives many more options than hugging the Baltic Coast. Building such a depot line is simply not possible in early start campaign scenarios.

[loki100]

I think, quite simply, you don't need them in those cities so there is no (in-game) gain to the depots in the later starts. In one game I had to surround Koenigsberg as it had too strong a mobile army to take directly. So I put one depot to the south of Koenigsberg (over the river) one to the eastern (Grosse-jaegersdorf?) and then the next was in that first province in E Prussia proper. That one filled up with supply quite nicely so it was clear that supply was traversing Poland regardless os a notional lack of depots in the country. So it seems, and this is just my obsevvation, its almost as if Poland doesn't count for supply range calculations, but as a balance the only safe places in the country are the cities.

I've tested it, you can use Poznan as a safe haven. So send units there, let them recover. Move into Prussia (say near Zorndorf - for reasons of history as an example), build a depot, and you are a threat on the mid-Oder. It seems as if that depot miraculously chains back across Poland with no need for intermediate ones. This is useful if your opponent has stalled you at Kolberg but the Austrians have made some gains on the lower Oder

This is far better than in 1.2 when you simply couldn't supply the Russians near Kolberg. Your only hope was to build a lot of supply wagons and send corps in to siege and rotate others back. If you got exceptionally lucky it might have fallen before your army starved.

[Narwhal]

The consistency problem is real, though.

Maybe add an event / option that would shift MC on some selected Polish provinces so the Russians can build depots ?

[lodilefty]

There never has been any intent in scenario design to make a "later start" setup reflect a position that can be achieved from the earlier starts.

The changes you discuss sound like a wonderful mod!

[Narwhal]

I have been looking at the two turns and I believe the reason why it lasts, and lasts, and lasts is that relatively low damage is done each battle, so that the Prussians, who are in "defend at all cost", do not retreat. In "defend at all cost", you only retreat if most of your army is routed, but since your army does not commit...

Now, here are the reasons why there is little damage :

- The combat is in wooded hill, in rain (first turn) or fair weather (second turn) - so the frontage is fairly small. About 50 elements commit per round of battle, for a little less of 700 elements for the Austrian and 500 for the Prussian (who commit less). Even with some rotation during a battle, most units never see battle.
- Wooded hills make everyone except irregulars shoot at 75% efficiency, or 50% in the case of guns and cav.
- Everyone who commit is completely exhausted, so deal very little damage
- Most units don't have any more ammo (normal, after dizains of turn of battle).
- The Prussians, which are the most exhausted, are entrenched, so receive even less damage.

Overall, extremely low damage (less than 75 hits per battle per side in general) so no retreat. The battle are more like a serie of skirmishes.

Are you quite sure you have the latest patch ? The "trained infantry" event is very rare when the game is patched to 1.03a. When you launch the game, do you see the 1.03a patch at the bottow right of the screen ?

[elxaime]

Thank you for looking at this. To answer your question, yes we are using 1.03a. The lengthy battle had been going on for about a month (4 game turns) of which you have two of them. Any further thoughts on this? It seems like it needs some tweaking, no?


On the Russian supply, it sounds like it is WAD. However you could understand our confusion. We looked at the later start campaigns and saw things that were not possible in the 1756 start and we assumed it was for good reason. But it seems the Russian depots and military control in Polish territory in the later start scenarios are just fluff? I would suggest for consistency in future revisions the later scenarios remove those Russian depots and military control in Poland for consistency. Or - even better - take the esteemed suggestion of adding some events in 1757 on that allow the Russian to be able to establish them when you play the 1756 start campaign. Otherwise, it just seems very strange and I doubt we will be the last ones to think this.

[Narwhal]

Thank you for looking at this. To answer your question, yes we are using 1.03a. The lengthy battle had been going on for about a month (4 game turns) of which you have two of them. Any further thoughts on this? It seems like it needs some tweaking, no?

Actually, I believe it is fine. You have to see this as a serie of skirmishes (with most losses actually "prisonners" or "desertions") and not as a "big battle" à la Kunersdorf. Sure, 2 months is a bit long to stay around - but none of the player is cuting the cost like - so why not.

[Kensai]

Don't supplies just arrive over the sea? Do I really need to build any depots as Russia (in 1758) as I move on the seacoast after Poland but before Kolberg? What if my only depots are the city depots of Kolberg and Königsberg?

[Durk]

Supplies only arrive by sea if they have a city or depot in which to land. Your supply units are not replenished by sea.

[Kensai]

Then probably I am replenished normally from Gdansk. Can't explain it otherwise. I see that I receive supplies by mousing over my units moving through Austrian-conquered territory towards Kolberg. So, unless the tooltip shows that units receive supplies even if it just from the attached supply carts, which would be wrong, I receive from a neighboring Polish city. Koenigsberg and the other depots are simply too far away.

[loki100]

Supplies only arrive by sea if they have a city or depot in which to land. Your supply units are not replenished by sea.

also you can gain (limited) supply at Poznan, I've usefully used that as a base for Cossacks to scout/raid in my last 2 PBEMs with no supply unit there. I've not deployed regulars there as I can't really see the gain, so not sure how finite the supply is but its enough to support and replenish a fair force