defending against sieges

[Charles]

I guess this is more of a how to question.

I am in the middle of a grand campaign PBEM 1.02, now up to june 57.

I have been besieging Prague for 3 turns. I have sappers/siege artillery present. There are a total of 2 breaches so far, but I get a message that assaults are still imposiible. My Austrian opponent has about 800 points of troops in the city.

Last turn, the fortress of Kosel in Silesia fell. It was besieged by an Austrian force in early may and surrendered the very next turn ([SIZE="1"]cowards!!![/size] :grr . I only had the minimum garrison in it.

When I read the rules section on "sieges", I see only 4 factors listed that can help defend a fortress against sieges:

i)- presence of artillery;
ii)- presence of a supply wagon;
iii)- presence of a leader with a "engineer", "fort defender" icon;
iv)- increasing average unit discipline;

but what about other factors:

v)- number of defending units?
vi)- attack/defence number of friendly leaders present?

Do they have an impact? I can see how they help in case of an "assault", but do they also influence the SRV die roll?

[Bertram]

As far as I know the number of defenders does not influence the siege "die roll" an sich. But one of the results possible is that the defenders suffer 10 hits (and no breach). If you only have one (militia) unit defending the fortress, it will be wiped out by that result.

Having said that, I think anything above a large garrison is a waste of manpower - they only will surrender en masse when the siege goes wrong, or be killed to the man when assaulted.

[Charles]

Having said that, I think anything above a large garrison is a waste of manpower - they only will surrender en masse when the siege goes wrong, or be killed to the man when assaulted.

more or less what I thought as well.

From a pure cost-benefit point of view, just putting one full supply wagon in a fortress may be the most practical move. It will turn a surrender into a breach and can give you the extra 1-2 turns required to bring up a relieving force.

[squarian]

Hello Charles!

One question I've been meaning to ask for some time - what is the range of random numbers for the siege roll? We know what the modifiers are: guns, engineers, supply, etc. But are these modifying a d6 or a d10 or what? Obviously, the larger the random range, the less important the modifiers.

Another point to be made: at the moment, at least until the next patch, fortress batteries are wrongly made up of field artillery instead of heavy arty. It's not clear to me how (or if) that change will affect the SRV or assault combat, but it probably should.

Moreover, for the AUS side especially, this error in the database means that fortress batteries, especially in towns AUS gains after gamestart, are usually damaged and weak. Almost all fortress batteries captured from the PRU side become AUS units (the exception seems to be Memel and Koenigsberg, which become Russian units by event, I believe).

Since AUS only produces field arty through the yearly automatic replacements or buying the ocassional EP option, there are never enough field arty replacement elements to go around, and the engine distributes them more or less randomly to actual field units and garrison batteries.

The result is that many captured batteries are understrength (and meanwhile AUS ends up with a surplus of heavy arty replacement elements, because they are only being used for AUS siege trains). Obviously, this tends to skew the "siege game" further.

[Baris]

what is the range of random numbers for the siege roll? We know what the modifiers are: guns, engineers, supply, etc. But are these modifying a d6 or a d10 or what? Obviously, the larger the random range, the less important the modifiers.

fortress batteries are wrongly made up of field artillery instead of heavy arty. It's not clear to me how (or if) that change will affect the SRV or assault combat, but it probably should.

Since AUS only produces field arty through the yearly automatic replacements or buying the ocassional EP option, there are never enough field arty replacement elements to go around, and the engine distributes them more or less randomly to actual field units and garrison batteries.

The result is that many captured batteries are understrength (and meanwhile AUS ends up with a surplus of heavy arty replacement elements, because they are only being used for AUS siege trains). Obviously, this tends to skew the "siege game" further.

Good questions, and how we don't know the side of the dice about the siege? Im somewhat new, I guess it is not answered in ACW forums or maybe some new concepts about siege coded in previous patches.

Replacement type is easy to change about artilery but when these changes are made there can be some need for game balance,just like disbanding of elements or merging(Just for the ai)

What is more important I guess is infantry and cavalry balance. Success can only be achieved by giving examples on battles(save game) or by more people demanding balanced stacks

[Charles]

One question I've been meaning to ask for some time - what is the range of random numbers for the siege roll? We know what the modifiers are: guns, engineers, supply, etc. But are these modifying a d6 or a d10 or what? Obviously, the larger the random range, the less important the modifiers.

I have been wondering that too. The manual states that defending forces will surrender if the SRV die roll is greater than the average unit discipline. Most PRU garrison forces have a unit discipline of 7.

Good points Squarian about Fort batteries.

I find Sieges work pretty well overall. In RL, you did have random results, from sieges that lasted months to one-day surprise assaults. The attacker has a range of options, from quick assault to cautious siege and you need to prepare to make sure you have siege arty, sappers, enough supply.

There are maybe a few other things to look at:

1. minimum garrisoning requirements: in game, everyone just keeps a bare bone garrison. In RL, each fortress required a certain number of troops to be adequately protected. I remember that Loudon was able to capture a key fortress in a surprise assault, either Glatz or Schweidnitz, because Frederick had only left 4 battalions to guard it;

2. siege artillery mobility:In RL, Siege and Heavy artillery was not very mobile and would generally only be pulled out when the attacker had ample time to prepare for a siege. In game, there is little speed difference between Siege and Field artillery and the tendency is too lug it around wherever you go. If there was a bigger speed difference, a player would have to think twice about carrying around his Siege artillery. This would include an additional element to consider;

[Fatboy]

Where an the Siege Resolution Value (SRV) or some indication of the value be seen by the user?

[Durk]

Where an the Siege Resolution Value (SRV) or some indication of the value be seen by the user?

As the player, you do not see the results of this value; instead, you only see the consequence of this value. While this can be frustrating or amusing, depending upon which side of the siege you stand, it is fair from the standpoint of Fog of War and randomness of sieges.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

The siege resolution-dice has 15 sides.

Here's an extract of ROP/GameData/Settings/Bombard&Blockade&Siege (never mind about the manual, read those files in "Settings" :evilgrin

[SIZE="1"]// ***** SIEGE *****
sieValueForSiegeBonus = 10 // How many Artillery Combat Pts needed to get a +1/-1 modifier to siege
sieOutcomeDiceRollSides = 15 // Sides of the Siege Outcome rolls / compared to TQ/Discipline
sieWagonDepotProtectChance = 95 // Chance that a non empty depot/wagon protects against surrender {increased from 50 => 80 March 11, 2010, then from 80 => 95 March 17, 2010}
baseProdCoefLocked = 25 // Percent of base supply when under siege with port unblocked
sieExtraModifier = 1 // Extra Modifier (positive: help the besieger)
sieSurrenderModEndangered = - 3 // If structure breached, lack of supply and weaker than besieger, get this penalty to surrender[/size]

[Durk]

Jacques,
I am reading your post, appreciating your digging and understanding, but am left wondering if this is it; the answer to defending against sieges.
I have seen leadership qualities make an instant difference in sieges. Which I do not see in this formula.

Are the numbers you posted only for surrender? That is my supposition.

I do not see in this formula a resolution for a one or two breach outcome.

I am not conversant at reading the game data and formulas. If this is the final answer, I would so appreciate an explanation.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Durk,

You have to add some information from the manual (p. 53) here.

So, from my understanding, siege resolution is handled the following way:

The besieger rolls a d15, and adds points to this roll according to:
1) leader and unit abilities (siege specialist, sappeurs, siege artillery, etc.), the exact amount of these boni are unknown to us players
2) the amount of artillery he can bring (+1 Siege point per 10 points artillery combat power - I guess that there's some kind of cap on this?)
3) & 4) According to the manual, there is also a bonus for having already made breaches (seems to be missing in the formula above), and if the defender is out of supply.
5) According to the formula above, the besieger gets an automatic bonus of +1

The besieged also rolls 1d15, and adds points according to:
1) amount of artillery combat power (as above)
2) special abilities (as above)
3) +1-3 points acoording to fortification level (- breaches already made!)

As described in the manual, the final siege values of besieged and besieger are then compared:

If the besiegers' value is lower than the value of the besieged, the besieged can repair a breach if there's one.
If the besiegers' value is greater than the value of the besieged, then the besieged suffer 5 hits per surplus siege point.
If the besiegers' value is greater by at least 3 points, then a breach is made (additionally to the hits inflicted).
If the bsiegers' value is greater than the average troop quality of the defernders (Discipline/Troop Quality in the element details), then the besieged surrender. If some conditions are met (see sieSurrenderModEndangered) there's an extra penatly for the besieged. If there's a non depleted supply wagon (or those general supply packages) present in the city, however, then there's only a 5% chance that the besieged surrender (if they don't, a breach is made).

That's pretty much all that I was able to find in the manual and in the game files. A d15 sounds like there's a lot of luck involved in sieges. But on the other hand, you only need 10 artillery power points for an extra point. It might be useful to have some artillery experts around to increase the combat power of artillery in sieges... Leader ratings and amount of troops don't seem to have any influence.

PS: As far as I know, Loudons surprise attack is represented in this game by his special ability "assaulter". He's able to assault fortifications without having to breach them first. So this is probably a matter of attributing the attacks' success either to Loudons' ability or the Prussians' lack of manpower to defend the forification properly.

[Durk]

This is so clear.
Thank you for explaining in such detail.

Now I am speculating.
Are you saying the Fort Defender ability is not used, from what you can tell? I am wondering because siege specialist is.

Could 10 be the cap for artillery?

One additional question. Unless a breach, repair or surrender occurs, the players receives no message as to siege progress? When an area has been pillaged, it is often difficult to know if a change has occurred. What is your experience on this question?

Thank you again for such a detailed explanation of what is an essential tool in RoP.

[Ethan]

Hi Bill!

First of all, I'm sorry for not answering before, but I’ve been a bit busy.

[color="Navy"]Hi, Ethan!
I'm glad we're friends, now.

Thanks for the link! No wonder I couldn't find the painting online; I remembered the title incorrectly! I'm absolutely delighted that you found it for me!
As my eldest daughter would say,
"You ROCK, dude!"[/color]

You’re welcome, buddy! It has been a pleasure to help you.

By the way, I’m also glad to be your friend, Bill.

[color="navy"]I hope you'll have a chance to get to know my wife. She's the Queen that you may have heard about. She's not a strong player, but she did write a classic AAR. If you haven't read it, I'll send you a link. I assure you: you've never read an AAR like it, before![/color]

Of course, I would be so glad to know her, although I have to say that I’ve already heard about Aphrodite Mae... She is your wife, isn’t she?

Regarding her AAR, I haven't read it yet. Please, would you be so kind to send me the link?

[color="navy"]So: do you have time to play a slow, casual PBEM game? Something small, with less than, say, 20 turns.[/color]

I’m sorry to say that at this moment I have very little spare time due to my job and other occupations. That really takes me a long time. Anyway, if in a not too distant future I have more spare time, we’ll be emplaced to play a game, right?

[color="navy"]I can tell that you're not an American, but your fluent English is great! How did you acquire your mastery of English? I so want to learn Spanish! More and more in the US, we are becoming a bi-lingual nation, due to a huge influx of Mexican immigrants.[/color]

Well, thanks for saying that, but my English level isn't so high, it's just a medium level that I acquired in the high school. Ah! I encourage you to learn Spanish... I think you'll like it!

[color="navy"]Say... do you know how to mod? (I haven't searched out all of your posts, yet, so I don't know much about you other than what I've seen of what you've written "here and there".) If you know how to mod, or would like to have a hand in developing the game, I'll see if I can't get you made a member of the AACW beta team, now that "Voldemort" is gone.[/color]

No, I have no idea about how to mod. I've never tried it. In any case, as I said you before, I haven't all the free time that I would like to have, so...

Anyway, thanks a million for your wonderful offer, my friend.

Best Regards!

Julio.

PS: It would be interesting to know more about your research work on Artillery models for AACW.

[Trueknight]

If there's a non depleted supply wagon (or those general supply packages) present in the city, however, then there's only a 5% chance that the besieged surrender (if they don't, a breach is made).

Sorry to necro this old thread, I'd like if someone could confirm me that there still is a little chance that a sieged city with Supply Wagon can surrender.
The manual says it CAN'T, while here you says there's is 5% chance...

In my PBEM game Koeniggratz surrended after a few weeks of siege, while having a Fort Defender generale, no breaches and plenty of supplies...i'd like to know if i was just very unlucky or we incurred in a bug.


Thanks

[Narwhal]

It has a 5% chance of surrender if :
- There is a non-empty supply wagon
- The garrison is weaker than the besiegers.

There is 0% chance of surrender if :

- There is a non-empty supply wagon
- The garrison is stronger than the besiegers.

This is what I understand from the accumulation of patch notes

[Trueknight]

It has a 5% chance of surrender if :
- There is a non-empty supply wagon
- The garrison is weaker than the besiegers.

There is 0% chance of surrender if :

- There is a non-empty supply wagon
- The garrison is stronger than the besiegers.

This is what I understand from the accumulation of patch notes

Thanks, in my case the garrison was surely weaker than the besiegers, so i suppose i was quite unlucky. Maybe this could be made more clear in the manual...

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Durk,

You have to add some information from the manual (p. 53) here.

So, from my understanding, siege resolution is handled the following way:

The besieger rolls a d15, and adds points to this roll according to:
1) leader and unit abilities (siege specialist, sappeurs, siege artillery, etc.), the exact amount of these boni are unknown to us players
2) the amount of artillery he can bring (+1 Siege point per 10 points artillery combat power - I guess that there's some kind of cap on this?)
3) & 4) According to the manual, there is also a bonus for having already made breaches (seems to be missing in the formula above), and if the defender is out of supply.
5) According to the formula above, the besieger gets an automatic bonus of +1

The besieged also rolls 1d15, and adds points according to:
1) amount of artillery combat power (as above)
2) special abilities (as above)
3) +1-3 points acoording to fortification level (- breaches already made!)

As described in the manual, the final siege values of besieged and besieger are then compared:

If the besiegers' value is lower than the value of the besieged, the besieged can repair a breach if there's one.
If the besiegers' value is greater than the value of the besieged, then the besieged suffer 5 hits per surplus siege point.
If the besiegers' value is greater by at least 3 points, then a breach is made (additionally to the hits inflicted).
If the bsiegers' value is greater than the average troop quality of the defernders (Discipline/Troop Quality in the element details), then the besieged surrender. If some conditions are met (see sieSurrenderModEndangered) there's an extra penatly for the besieged. If there's a non depleted supply wagon (or those general supply packages) present in the city, however, then there's only a 5% chance that the besieged surrender (if they don't, a breach is made).

That's pretty much all that I was able to find in the manual and in the game files. A d15 sounds like there's a lot of luck involved in sieges. But on the other hand, you only need 10 artillery power points for an extra point. It might be useful to have some artillery experts around to increase the combat power of artillery in sieges... Leader ratings and amount of troops don't seem to have any influence.

PS: As far as I know, Loudons surprise attack is represented in this game by his special ability "assaulter". He's able to assault fortifications without having to breach them first. So this is probably a matter of attributing the attacks' success either to Loudons' ability or the Prussians' lack of manpower to defend the forification properly.

This is clear, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to work this way. I've tested it by setting the sides of the dice from 15 to 1, to get rid of randomness for singling out the other factors. I've set the artillery Power-points needed for additional siege-resultion-points really high (500) so that no faction should get one. Then I've increased the "bonus for the attacker" step by step. I started at +7 and tested it out by besieging a level 2 fortress (without artillery, with artillery, with siege artillery). What can I say. At +100, the besiegers still didn't manage to inflict hits or cause a breach. I left the bonus for the besieger at 100 and increased the sides of the siege-dice from 1 to 30 and still the same result.

So sieges must be processed somehow, but certainly not in the way I (and the manual) have described? Yet another lack of documentation. I'm not even talking of an information on the siege-resolution in the game (a screen pops up, showing the dice rolls and all the positive/negative factors per side et volia!).

[Narwhal]

No artillery => No breach

I think you need to have at least one "bonus" for the breach to be possible, so one rusky gun with 1 power won't do.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Well, but according to the description above, the besieged should surrender if the siege-value-difference is greater than average TQ/discipline (measured via subunits or units?). This is what I was aiming at by setting the "help-besieger"-bonus to very high values. Moreover, I tested it out in various settings (no artillery, artillery, siege artillery - but I never had more artillery power than the besieged). Perhaps a superiority in artillery-combat power (the difference needs to be at least as high as it is set in the variable) is neccessary before any other boni (like the "help-besieger"-bonus, or also "siege-expert"-boni of siege artillery and sappeurs) can even be applied?

All I want to know is how sieges are carried out. I just want to know the "rules" of the game in order to be able to base my plans on proper information. And since I am of the opinion that sieges are too random right now, I want to reduce the random factor. But I can't do this without the knowledge how the whole system works. I just wished this game had a real manual. As it is now, supply- and siege questions flood the AGEOD-forums. Why can't we just answer these questions once and for all? Supply might be a bit complex, but the siege-formula must be pretty straightforward to understand and explain? People should get a rough idea what they need to bring for a siege to have even a chance to succeed. They should be able to get a quite clear impression (some randomness is still there anyway) how long a fort can resist a siege, if they bring XY guns/siege equipment (unluckily, as it is now, there is also no way to get information on the artillery-power of the besieged). Formal sieges were pretty mechanical affairs if you brought the proper equipment, guns and manpower (for digging, creating fascines/gabions, etc. etc.). But with long turnintervalls of 2 weeks, a single point of SRV can be very, very, very decisive. Thus we should be able to judge chances a bit better. We need to know the magic formula!! As the game is right now, you have no way at all to tell how much more efforts are needed if you fail to do a breach/hits. Only if you inflict some hits or a breach, you at least know that you have a CHANCE. But to even find this out, you need to lay siege for 15 full days - and then you never know if it was just a result of an (un)lucky siege-roll.