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slimey.rock
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Movies on the seven years war?

Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:41 am

I have started researching Frederick II and the Seven Years war and was wondering if there are any movies or good documentaries highlighting the European theater of the war?

I love reading and all, but there's nothing quite as exciting as watching a recreation of historical warfare. :dada:
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Sol Invictus
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Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:53 am

Good luck with that. The only movie I can think of is Barry Lindon and while a great movie, I doubt that is what you have in mind.
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MrT
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Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:51 am

The only ones i know of are national socialist junk. Someone contact hollywood this is a whole empty genre, then again im quite certain we'd end up with Fred the romantic comedy of a great emperor. :bonk:

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Sol Invictus
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Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:51 pm

MrT wrote:The only ones i know of are national socialist junk. Someone contact hollywood this is a whole empty genre, then again im quite certain we'd end up with Fred the romantic comedy of a great emperor. :bonk:



No doubt about that. I am sure that they would also highlight the homosexual angle as well. :coeurs:
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anarchyintheuk
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Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:28 pm

Sol Invictus wrote:Good luck with that. The only movie I can think of is Barry Lindon and while a great movie, I doubt that is what you have in mind.


Great movie for period it covers him as a soldier. Agreed about the rest; however, due to the lack of anything else seeing the movie is worth it.

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berto
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Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:55 pm

In Franz Szabo's book, The Seven Years War in Europe, in the forward he more or less blames WWII and Nazism on the rise of Prussian militarism beginning in the 18th Century. (Szabo is consistently anti-Frederick throughout that book to the point of ludicrousness.)

Ever since WWII, and of course the Holocaust, in the mainstream media including films, anything Prussia-related seems to be verboten. Unless they portray Frederick as a (gay) proto-Fascist/Nazi, Hollywood is unlikely to make any film, much less any even-handed film, of the Seven Years War and/or Frederick the Great. At least until the WWII generation dies, Hollywood will continue to view pre-WWII Germany in a very dim light.

Of course, you won't see any SYW film also for the reason that it's not on the very short list of "safe", popular, shop-worn, overdone stories including

  • Joan of Arc
  • Henry VIII, and his wives
  • Queen Elizabeth
  • King Arthur
  • ...


Stupid, superficial popular culture! Bah, Hollywood! :fleb:
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aryaman
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Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:39 pm

I watched not long ago Fanfan la Tulipe http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0305568/
a dialogue "We are fighting the Seven Years War, still three years left!" :mdr:

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Padreigh
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Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:06 pm

I'd probably laugh my ar** off watching a romantic comedy (gay or otherwise) about dear Fritz. :D
... but that is probably more due to my dislike of all things Prussian then my taste in movies. ;)

But seriously, let's face it. The SYW is one of those "Forgotten Wars" and the studio producing a movie set in this period would take quite a risk.
Imagine trying to sell the script:
Studio CEO:"So, what is this movie about?"
Author:"Well, mainly Germans fighting Germans, with the occasional French, British, Russian and Hungarian bloke appearing."
Studio CEO:"So who are the good guys?"
Author:"Well, it's a war movie, so there are no good guys really."
Studio CEO:"Well, who wins?"
Author:"The Anglo-Prussian Alliance"
Studio CEO:"Prussians? Aren't those the guys that started World War I and II? This Kaiser fellow and such"
Author:"No, no!"
PStudio CEO: "Next!" :D
Frederick II. at Kolin to his retreating soldiers: "Kerls, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?"
(Do you want to live forever?)
Unfortunately we don't know his reaction to the answer he got: "Für dreizehn Pfennig wars für heute genug!"
(basically: I'd say we did enough today, considering what you pay us. :D)

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Carrington
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Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:52 pm

Lest there be too much Prussian-bashing....

In Our Enemies and Us, Ido Oren makes an interesting point.

For most of the 19th century, Prussia (and German constitutionalism) was widely regarded as the more relevant inspiration for U.S. democracy than the British model. Frederick Jackson Turner, the seminal U.S. historian, was among those who argued that American democracy descended from German roots.

(Of course it helped that he and many of his colleagues took their doctorates from German Universities... and that the U.S was in the most active geopolitical competition with Britain, France, and Russia at the time. ).

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Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:30 pm

well my own view is that prussianism led directly to nazism and that the prussian takeover of germany was a transparently a disaster for germany, europe and the world. i don't understand how this plain fact can be denied.

it should be remembered that the militarist, authoritarian prussians opposed any unification of germany that was not on their terms, including several attempts by the habsburgs (who were constitutional, civil rulers who believed in the separation of powers and who ruled a much larger germany than the prussians ever did), and by the liberal revolutionaries of 1848 who i think held out the most attractive vision of a united, democratic and non-militarist germany prior to 1871.

the current bundesrepublik sees its antecedents in the 1848 revolution, and it flies the flag of the 1848 revolution, which speaks volumes. why has prussia been wiped from the face of the planet? prussophiles should face that fact. and why is there still an austrian state one of whose purposes is specifically stated on its own websites as preserving and protecting the physical heritage of the habsburgs? austria exists today because the prussians deliberately excluded the germans of austria from their so called 'kleindeutschland' (which rapidly became even kleiner, in 1919 and in 1945)

that so many american wargamers find inspiration in prussia, i find disturbing. all the more when they despise state service except of the prussianist variety, given that it was their country that was instrumental in no uncertain terms, of obliterating prussia, along with the USSR and France and Britain and its commonwealth.

it would have better for everyone if Maria Theresa had won her war.

in terms of movies, there was a B&W one called 'age of gallantry' which i saw as a kid and have always remembered, but never found through internet searches. i think it was the SYW, at least the 18thC

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Sol Invictus
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Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:38 pm

I am very sure that it is much easier to "admire" Frederick and things Prussian from a very great distance distance of time. Same with Alexander, Caesar, and Napoleon. Hell, we got all bent out of shape over a few minor taxes. :cursing:
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Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:26 am

Rogs, it's an interesting question that you raise. I'm not sure I entirely disagree, particularly on the question of 1848.
That said, the "militant Prussians" that you mention would argue that only a strong, well-armed state could survive, particularly in Prussia's environs. The fate of Polish democracy would have been a cautionary lesson for them.

You have to grant that they had something of a point, much as my sympathies were with the Frankfurt parliamentarians.

rogs wrote:well my own view is that prussianism led directly to nazism and that the prussian takeover of germany was a transparently a disaster for germany, europe and the world. i don't understand how this plain fact can be denied.


First, I tend to go with the Hannah Arendt argument: Imperialism +Anti-semitism >> totalitarianism. Prussianism is not necessarily part of that equation.

Second, on realist terms, "Prussianism" is not easily distinguished from the pursuit of security. Granted, security seemed to necessitate ever more distant frontiers, but this was an assumption not limited to just the Prussians, else we wouldn't have Churchill and Kitchener mucking around in the Sudan, or Marchand jostling for Fashoda. It's not clear that a Bundesrepublik based on the revolutions of 1848 would have pursued a less aggressive foreign policy... particularly given the Darwinian hothouse that was central Europe.

Finally, there's a lot of contingency between 1866 and 1939. Our view of Prussia would be rather different if:

A) Frederick III took the throne earlier, or died later

B) Kaiser Bill held off on firing Bismarck.

C) Kaiser Bill managed to be convinced to fight only one war at a time.

D) Hitler took a bullet instead of Goering during the Beerhall Putsch.

Sol Invictus wrote:I am very sure that it is much easier to "admire" Frederick and things Prussian from a very great distance distance of time. Same with Alexander, Caesar, and Napoleon. Hell, we got all bent out of shape over a few minor taxes. :cursing:


Actually, I don't really think there's a valid comparison here. Frederick beat up his own army -- and that of his opponents -- fairly ruthlessly. But Alexander, Caesar, and particularly Napoleon precipitated warfare on a rather different scale.

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Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:08 am

I was not comparing these men, only the fact that from a distance they are easier to admire than many of their contemporaries found them. There is much to admire in all of these men but also many flaws that are usually downplayed from our secure moment in time.

To your other point, I have absolutely no problem with the history of the Prussian State. It was no more flawed or evil than most other major powers of the time and I certainly don't draw a straight line from Prussian militarism to National Socialism. That is a bit too convienient and simple.
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Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:08 am

The main problem Prussia has is that when people hear of Prussia, the first thing they usually think of is that bumbling bufoon Wilhelm II.
As far as I am concerned it was under his reign that the "Prussian Virtues" degenerated. Prussia wasn't more "evil" then for example Great Britain (if for example going to war is considered evil, Great Britain is far more evil :) ).

This degeneration of the Prussian Virtues into blind obedience and an almost comical reverence for all things military played directly into the hands of Hitler, when he promised Germany that he would restore her to her old glory.

So I don't blame Frederic II. for Hitler. There are enough other things which cause me to dislike him. :)
Frederick II. at Kolin to his retreating soldiers: "Kerls, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?"

(Do you want to live forever?)

Unfortunately we don't know his reaction to the answer he got: "Für dreizehn Pfennig wars für heute genug!"

(basically: I'd say we did enough today, considering what you pay us. :D)

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Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:22 pm

aryaman wrote:I watched not long ago Fanfan la Tulipe http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0305568/
a dialogue "We are fighting the Seven Years War, still three years left!" :mdr:


I like the original from 1952, but is historically uncertain.

Padreigh wrote:I'd probably laugh my ar** off watching a romantic comedy (gay or otherwise) about dear Fritz. :D
... but that is probably more due to my dislike of all things Prussian then my taste in movies. ;)

But seriously, let's face it. The SYW is one of those "Forgotten Wars" and the studio producing a movie set in this period would take quite a risk.
Imagine trying to sell the script:
Studio CEO:"So, what is this movie about?"
Author:"Well, mainly Germans fighting Germans, with the occasional French, British, Russian and Hungarian bloke appearing."
Studio CEO:"So who are the good guys?"
Author:"Well, it's a war movie, so there are no good guys really."
Studio CEO:"Well, who wins?"
Author:"The Anglo-Prussian Alliance"
Studio CEO:"Prussians? Aren't those the guys that started World War I and II? This Kaiser fellow and such"
Author:"No, no!"
PStudio CEO: "Next!" :D


I think part of the problem is also current unpopularity about this period. Age of Reason isnt cool -> little chance to make blockbuster for hollywood production and make grand battle scenes without money seems difficult to me. Mann's Last Mohican is truly uncommon title and i think best about SYW (but not from european theater of course). I saw a few movies about this period from european productions, but was either stupid and historically incorect or this war was only backround for story and show nearly nothing from the war.

some which i remember:
http://www.fdb.cz/filmy/24133-ztracenci.html
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0431492/

http://www.csfd.cz/film/26912-ukradena-bitva-gestohlene-schlacht-die/gallery/

http://www.csfd.cz/film/101296-ve-jmenu-lasky-a-povinnosti-trenck-zwei-herzen-gegen-die-krone/gallery/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103311/

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Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:28 am

rogs wrote:well my own view is that prussianism led directly to nazism and that the prussian takeover of germany was a transparently a disaster for germany, europe and the world. i don't understand how this plain fact can be denied.


Seems a bit rough to put all the blame of National Socialism on the Prussians. The leaders were hardly archetypal Junkers. They were in fact a Catholic Austrian (Hitler) a Catholic Bavarian (Strasser) and a Catholic from the Ruhr (Goebbels) (admittedly the Ruhr was part of "Prussia" at the time, but hardly the sort of place one thinks of when one hears of Prussia).

Frederick's government was obviously absolutist, but then so were those of all of his opponents. I wouldn't call Hapsburg Austria particularly 'civil'. They faced more constitutional constraints (certainly in Hungary, to some extent in the German and Czech speaking lands, much less so in Italy) but the constitution constraints served the interests of the nobility. The Prussian crown was much more aligned with the gentry than the nobility. I don't see much to choose between them. Certainly Prussia was far more religiously tolerant than Austria or France.

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Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:26 am

As I said elsewhere, we can't blame Frederick II. for Nazism.
But I have no qualms putting a lot of blame on Wilhelm II. and "his" Prussia for enabling the "Bohemian Private"`s rise to power. And the exaggerated importance of all things military started in Friederich Wilhelms and Fredericks days. As Voltaire said: Where some states have an army, the Prussian Army has a state!

While Frederick was not worse than his contemporaries, he was also by no means better. The Prussian military, although not as brutal as it is usually depicted, was hated even in Prussian territories. In my "home province" border towns suffered economically, because young men rather fled across the border then risk ending up in the Prussian army.
And I am still amused by Friedrich Wilhelms complaint that the Hannoverian soldiers do all things efficiently and willingly, without someone beating them. :)
Frederick II. at Kolin to his retreating soldiers: "Kerls, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?"

(Do you want to live forever?)

Unfortunately we don't know his reaction to the answer he got: "Für dreizehn Pfennig wars für heute genug!"

(basically: I'd say we did enough today, considering what you pay us. :D)

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Syt
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Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:00 pm

While not a movie I can wholeheartedly suggest
The Pursuit of Glory: Europe 1648-1815 by Tim Blanning.

In scope much broader, looking at all aspects of life during the period, from culture, to commerce, to communication, to court policies, to enlightenment and superstition to warfare and sex. It's a massively interesting book about this period, without too much bias or focus on select countries, and with an extensive list of dozens of books as suggested reading between war, gender, national histories etc.
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Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:37 pm

I for one happen to admire Prussia. Can we not admire Russia because of the atrocities of Stalin? Can we not admire China becuase Mao killed so many? I believe I can admire a nation independently of a 15 year portion of its history.

Prussia, in comparison to other European nations, was a bastion of religious freedom and liberalism. Its Army was draconian but not its society in general. The only reason so many hate Prussia is because she won. Prussia embraced militarism so that it could not be pressed under the thumb of the Austrian Hapsburgs like the rest of Germany or be pulled to pieces like Poland. Once it gained strength, Prussia was unwilling to cede control over the German states to Austria. Some Austrian historians, like Szabo, seem to be "sore losers" when they argue that Prussia was somehow this great bully. There was an ongoing fight between Austria and Prussia over who would dominate Germany and in 1866 that matter was concluded with a thrashing. Austria would have demonstarted no less forcefull control had she won.

I can admire a nation that developed the concept of a General Staff and I can admire it for the religious freedoms it offered in an area of the world where that was limited. I can also admire it for growing into a significant power in an area of the world where none had done so.

WWI was not Germany's "fault" anymore than it was any one elses...they were responding to calls from allies. I don't throw out all that Prussia has accomplished simply because some National Socialist came in with a phsycopathic agenda anymore than I would because it was succesfull in doing what Austria could not, unite Germany

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Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:07 am

"Imperialism +Anti-semitism >> totalitarianism. Prussianism is not necessarily part of that equation."

maybe prussianism has its own equation: "autocratic political system + militarism = misdirected use of force".

it all depends on the autocrat . . . :cool: or :wacko:

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Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:28 pm

If you are lucky there will probably some movies be available at Amazon. You can watch parts of these at youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajYpy6MOg-w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcZ49N-bPoA&feature=related

These are b/w movies, produced in the 1930s.

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Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:03 am

yeah, strange that between this posts i forget about nazi production...btw there is also a link to movie "Kolberg" which is also interesting piece (and free to watch whole on the net).

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berto
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Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:14 pm

About those Nazi productions: Creepy! :eek:

To think that all those movie extras would, in just a few short years, be rampaging across Europe for real.
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aryaman
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Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:29 pm

TomBombadil711 wrote:If you are lucky there will probably some movies be available at Amazon. You can watch parts of these at youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajYpy6MOg-w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcZ49N-bPoA&feature=related

These are b/w movies, produced in the 1930s.


The presentation of Kunersdorf is very astute, the Austrian artillery kills poo civilians...BTW I don´t see any Russian, only Austrians

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I can't get the anti-prussianism going on. Firstly, it had nothing to do with Hitler and the nazi's, they came quite a while after the prussian state was pretty much oblitorated and hijacked the german state and culture for their own warped, essential pan-german league vision (one taken to terrible extremes).

Also, Germany in 1871 was the only country in the world, i beleive, to have full male sufforage for everyone over 21, had a relativley strong parliament compared to its neighbours (russia and austria especially), and one can see power slowly moving away from an autocratic kaiser all the way until the 1919 revelution.

As for its famed militarism, that is somewhat of a falshood i think. Sure, in the 7 years war they kicked arse and punched above their weight, but never really recovered from the cost in manpower. As for WW1, the army staff was extremley conservative and completley failed to adapt to chaning methods of warfare.


As for films, I also can only think of Barry Lyndon, which is not really relevent to the OP, but still a great film. There might be a few set in the American theatre, but non that i know of unfortunatley, as people said, there is not really a big market for it, I htink it has something to do with that little Corsican man who caused some unpleasentness about 25 years later :p

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Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:48 pm

For commercial film makers, the one great attraction of the 18th century is that you get to put your leading lady in a corset and film her bosom heaving with every breath. (Barry Lyndon, Dangerous Liaisons, Moll Flanders, Fanny Hill, Ridicule, etc., etc.)

Not much opportunity for heaving bosoms on a battlefield.

Ergo, not many films set in the 18th c. have battle scenes but most have heaving bosoms.


;)

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Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:50 pm

Sol Invictus wrote:I am sure that they would also highlight the homosexual angle as well. :coeurs:



Brokeback Berg?

:D

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Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:33 pm

Dont forget the german prewar movies like
Der Choral von Leuthen and many others.
Russian and Polish Movies of that time are so unknown for westeners, so detailed and so good and so hard to find now.
Freiherr von Trenck comes to my mind too.
Sachsens Glanz und Preussens Gloria - an eastgerman mini series.
There is some to find if one is interrested.

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Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:47 pm

Since the issue is German, Prussian - Habsburg,
the most movies are german too.
Americans are so selfoccupied, they will hardly know any not Hollywood stuff.
And sorry to say it is nearly all junk.
The greatest movie ever made of this time, - oki 50 years later - is the Russian Voyna i Mir War and Peace from Bondarchuk. Hollywood never realized, valued that gem.
The French movies of that time are nice too, well costumed, but Soubises
defeat at Roßbach was not that popular to make lots of movies on that issue.
So look in German TV and Cinema databanks.

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Syt
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:36 pm

Schattensand wrote:The greatest movie ever made of this time, - oki 50 years later - is the Russian Voyna i Mir War and Peace from Bondarchuk. Hollywood never realized, valued that gem.


... which is why it won Oscar and Golden Globe as best foreign film. ;)
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