British subsidies/turn length/logistics

[Sol Invictus]

Will Britain's subsidies for Prussia be modelled and how?

Will turns be monthly or two weeks in duration?

Will logistics be the same as in NC?

This game will be fabulous!

[Hok]

Will Britain's subsidies for Prussia be modelled and how?

Britain subsidies will be modelled with :

1°) New construction system
2°) Multiple Choice Options system that will, for example, permit Prussian player to choose between War Supply, Money and conscripts.

Will turns be monthly or two weeks in duration?

15 days turn

Will logistics be the same as in NC?

Yes, we will be in a complex logistic model

This game will be fabulous!

I hope so

[Florent]

Is money coming from income generated by the provinces/area hold or conquered by the player ?
About supply, does it model the lines of communications of the time ?
And is foraging allowed ? At this time forage would mean more risk for desertion and i don't think it was allowed except for cavalry. The armies of the revolution were the first to allow forage at this scale.

[Sol Invictus]

Thanks for the info Hok. Sounds great.

Florent, yeah I hope that the Army maneuvers are much more plodding with the need to establish Depots at regular intervals and very limited foraging. Logistics should be a real constraining factor.

[Florent]

Yes and hoping that there is a rule or system that prevents you from being the first Napoleon of history, i mean avoiding the fortress and striking at the Capital. You can do that but first you have to take ALL the fortress on your way in order to do that.

[marvingardns]

15 day turns on a smaller scale map? Any thoughts on how the dynamics of campaigning will look in that instance?

[Feralkoala]

Yes and hoping that there is a rule or system that prevents you from being the first Napoleon of history, i mean avoiding the fortress and striking at the Capital. You can do that but first you have to take ALL the fortress on your way in order to do that.

Of course, the Coalition did exactly that when it raided (and took) Berlin, if only for a short time. While losing your capital should be traumatic, for Prussia, at least, power resided in Frederick and there wasn't going to be a Prussian surrender until he agreed to it. Fortunately for him, Tsarina Elizabeth died when she did

What is interesting to me is that you should be able to see how Napoleonic maneuver was derived; it was no accident that Napoleon studied these campaigns extensively.

While the British subsidies are often mentioned, French subsidies to their coalition allies shouldn't be ignored, nor should the levies inflicted on the Saxons by their Prussian conquerors (Frederick estimated that taking Saxony paid for about half the Prussian war effort!).

[aryaman]

Taking capitals never won wars, Napoleon took Vienna in 1805 and the war continued, Berlin in 1806 and the war was kept by the Prussians until their Russians allies were defeated, Madrid in 1808, 1809 and 1812 to no real effect, and Moscow in 1812. Wars were won by destroying armies, enemy´s morale and resources, and of the 3 morale was always the key factor.

[aryaman]

Regarding supply, I hope there are supply lines long enough to be cut off, unlike NCP, were supply was plentyful and you could keep advancing and taking supply on your way, meaning that you could advance to take your supply instead of your supply following you, as was historically the case.

Another point I would like to see is a different supply count for forage. The lack of green fodder, not weather, was the main reason that prevented armies from campaigning in winter, or risk the decimation of cavalry. to some extent that has been represented in AACW (but not in NCP) by a heavy movement penalization to horse models in mud and snow, however it doesn´t affect artillery and, more importantly, supply and bagagge trains, limiting in real world not just the movement of cavalry units, but of any infantry or artillery as well.

[Sol Invictus]

I agree, campaigning in the off season should only be viable for short periods and the armies should wear out quickly. I also hope that attrition continues to take a large toll while armies are in winter quarters since losses were often higher while the soldiers were in cramped quarters than when they were in actual campaigning because of the spread of disease.

[Florent]

Feralkoala, this is exactly what you said Berlin was taken by a raiding party, mostly cavalry, this wasn't a Napoleonic maneuver.
The forces of the time used depots mostly because the use of foraging would generate too much desertion although the Russians used it.
In all countries, serfdom was established and the officers beating their soldiers during training were their Junkers or Lord in every-day life.
The rivers Oder, Elbe and Spree were vital communications line for supply and we can hope i will in the game.
Magdebourg was an important strategic depot allowing operations in Saxe.
In Strategy and Tactics nb 163 there is a list of 23-24 strategic features for the main Theater of war.
The good news is the scale of the map which is more operationnal, but 15 days per turn is certainly because the rate of march is lower than the Napoleonic armies here again to avoid desertion and straggling.
The cavalry was used on the flanks and rear during march to avoid desertion.
Few battles were fought in winter like Leuthen or Torgau and each side prepared the new campaign gathering money to get new recruits.

[Jamescott]

Presuming successful campaigns are restricted to spring/summer, how will the player pass the time during winter months? While I realize the real difficulties an army of this era faced in winter, how can it translate to a wargame?

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a traditional campaign season. However, I'd be concerned as a game designer that many gamers may not have the patience to sit tight and stare at the map for X number of turns.

Will there be diplomatic or espionage missions? Foraging or recon missions? Maybe managing desertion levels? Just some ideas of the top.

[Rooster]

Great to hear that rivers will play a historical role! The fortress network shouldn't be neglected either.

Will the siege model change at all? Frederick was an awful seiger.

[Sol Invictus]

Jamescott, I am sure there will be some aggressive activity during the off season, I just hope there will be a noticeable diminishment. The armies will need the time to build and prepare for the coming campaign season. I assume that if one wishes, a player could launch a major offensive in January, so long as they are prepared to suffer the consequences. Frederick did start the First War of the Austrian Succession in the winter, so it should be a viable option to consider if the situation warrants it.

[Jamescott]

a player could launch a major offensive in January, so long as they are prepared to suffer the consequences.

Very true. However, the good players won't start a major campaign during the winter because of the consequences.

Perhaps there will be opportunities for skirmishes or reconnaissance in force. I'm not particularly familiar with the wars and battle of this era, although I'm trying to remedy this. Just what did these armies do during the winter if they were in enemy territory? Or even on the front lines?

Again, my concern is if a game turn is 15 days. Without being familar with Ageod titles, that sounds like a lot of clicking "end turn" over the course of the winter months.

[tc237]

I'd be concerned as a game designer that many gamers may not have the patience to sit tight and stare at the map for X number of turns.

No real concern, that aspect is in every AGEod game. There are always a few things to do in winter anyway.

And, if you don't do anything at all during a winter turn it will go by faster because.....well, you didn't do anything except click Next turn.
The turn will pass as fast as you can click Next Turn and wait for it to process.

[Sol Invictus]

Yeah, if you did absolutely nothing for the entire winter, it would amount to around six mouseclicks and then it would be back to the action. You will certainly have things to do during winter so don't worry about this.

[arsan]

The other AGEOD games are also pretty seasonal and i really like it. It adds lots of flavour to the campaigns
Winter turns are faster but you still have things to do: recruit, reorganize and replenish forces in preparation for the next season, recruit, check events and new reinforcements...
You can also do limited campaigning and move units around on friendly areas (hopefully form town to town on just one turn so you don't get hit by bad weather damage ).
Probably WIA (monthly turns) is the most seasonal of all.
Plying the French&Indian war or the America Revolution up north, near the Canadian border means 5 "winter" turns of preparations and 7 "summer" turns of frantic campaigning to get something done and be back on your winter quarters before the first snow falls.
Quite interesting!!
Of course you also have all those Indian allies and militias that desert your armies on November to sit by the fire at home and you have to reorganize them again in spring
Damned amateurs!
Down south (the Carolinas) things are easier at winter but you still have mud and rain to cope with
Regards

[Sol Invictus]

Also, a very hot summer could potentially be as deadly or even worse than the winter cold. Heatstroke killed many soldiers at times and the heat was really hard on the horses as well. There never seems to be many 70 degree days with low humidity during war.

[tc237]

In Strategy and Tactics nb 163 there is a list of 23-24 strategic features for the main Theater of war.

Florent, do you have a digital copy of the rules for the S&T 163 game? (or any SYW boardgame)
I searched online briefly (ConSimWorld, BGG) but could not find them.

[Hohenlohe]

Also, a very hot summer could potentially be as deadly or even worse than the winter cold. Heatstroke killed many soldiers at times and the heat was really hard on the horses as well. There never seems to be many 70 degree days with low humidity during war.

This is due to the fact that there was a mild climate in that area during summer. Only in the winter months there could be a problem if troops were on march and not in the usual winter quarters.
But rainy days could hamper engagements because of the fact that the powder could become wet.First with the introduction of the percussion this problem was lessened.

greetings

Hohenlohe

[Jamescott]

Yeah, if you did absolutely nothing for the entire winter, it would amount to around six mouseclicks and then it would be back to the action. You will certainly have things to do during winter so don't worry about this.

Good points by both you and tc237. I guess I didn't think of it that way.

However, if I can't play for 1/4 of the turns then I expect the price to immediately drop by 1/4 the cost of retail!

I presume I used enough smileys to indicate I'm totally joking!

[Hohenlohe]

I think that we will do most of the strategic decisions like recruitment or such else during winter.

greetings

Hohenlohe

[Florent]

In January 1758, Russian General Fermor did a small winter campaign taking Königsberg.
He started again in May for the Zorndorf Campaign.
Tc237, i didn't see your post earlier, sorry
The latest game about the 7YW is Clash of Monarchs by GMT games and is a card driven games, the counters are beautiful.
Go on GMTgames.com, then click on P500 and on your left go on Living Rules and download them, thus you can see if the game is for you or not.
S&T 163 is still available on Secondchancegames.com (in Britain) and perhaps in USA Nobleknightgames.com (go to Wargames and search for mag.
There is some OOB and the article by Joe Miranda is a good intro to the period.

[Rooster]

Will there be anything to model the struggle in NA, and will this by extension limit a nation's ability to meet subsidy comittments. For example, will player commanding the Austrians/French be able to influence events in North America that would require Britain to cut back on subsidies to Prussia?

[PhilThib]

At the moment the events on the NA (and others too) theater are "historical"...i.e. they occur at fixed dates...now, our plan would be to improve on this, using the concept of "Engagment Points" we have in the game...

* The Prussian (i.e. British) would spend them to increase the British effort in NA (with the corrolary that there are initially less subsidies, but an earlier victory over there that will bring more troops and money later on)

* The Coalition (i.e.French) would spend them to better defend French overseas empire: would mean less French troops, much less French money...much less Engagement Points too...but would seriously impact subsidies to Prussia, as well as British contingent to Europe...

The idea is there, but the script and events remain to be done

[Rooster]

sounds fabu!

Would be killer to link BoA and RoP in some fashion... what a dream!

Speaking of historical events, I was reading Duffy's introduction to the reprint of Corbett and Duffy says that the threat of British "descents" on the French Atlantic coast did not trully account for redistribution of French troops from the German theatre as had been previously thought. Troops were moved away from theatre in that time frame, but for the usual rest and refitting, if I recall the text correctly.