Questions (concerning a possible bug and game mechanics)

[caranorn]

3. Does the "skirmisher"-ability of Grenzer-elements also apply to brigades (when the Grenzers are part of the brigade) and/or to the whole stack (when the Granzers are part of the stack but not within a brigade)? In other words: Is it better to put skirmishers in brigades or to leave them as seperate units in the stack? The manual is not clear on that, it says "force/unit" (p. 77).

Not sure that's still the case, but in AACW skirmishers in a brigade or division give this bonus to the entire brigade/division, but not the stack. So in RoP I've been (unhistorically) adding Grenzers and other Light Troops to my brigades...

[Pocus]

(1) yes
(2) each round, not each phase (where the range can change)
(3) it applies to a unit, a brigade is an unit so it applies to the full brigade. But not to a stack.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Is there a spreadsheet of combat frontage in different terrains for RoP available?

Does this one (AACW) for open terrain also apply for RoP (or NCP or WiA)?
http://www.ageod.net/aacwwiki/Frontage

6 minor questions on this wiki-article:

32.1. What does OffQutoa indicate? Is there such a huge restriction for attacking stacks?

32.2. And then it says: "Whether the unit is already engaged (big increase in chance to be engaged again). " A unit can be a brigade/division, so there is a higher chance that the whole "brigade" is commited, once an element of that brigade is commited? This means I better take care of the composition of my brigades?

32.3. There are two informations for the "element type" in RoP. One is the "movement type" (e.g. light/heavy infantry), the other one is the information in the upper one of the three boxes (e.g. "german infantry (line infantry)"). I guess that the movement-type-info is used in RoP and there is no "medium infantry" in the game?

32.4. Do speed-boni/penalties also apply when considering the usage of combat-frontage? E.g. An infantry-element with a speed-bonus may enter a region with clear terrain and roads in only 2 days. Does it only occupy a frontage of 2 then?

32.5. Just to get that right: In the article, "woods" also count as clear terrain. So commander-frontage-boni also apply in regions with woods (which are different from "forests" ) ? Moreover, hills are not considered "clear" terrain?

32.6. I guess that the "commander-in-chief" (highest ranking general in the region at that time - a new leader may enter the region when marching to the sound of the guns) determines the combat-boni for frontage. So, for frontage purposes, only the command-posture of the c-in-c's stack is relevant, right?

Thanks a million!

[JacquesDeLalaing]

33.1. How are targets picked in ranged combat? "A" or "B"?

This article (http://www.ageod.net/aacwwiki/Frontage) states, that elements of one unit/brigade always target enemy elements that are part of one enemy unit.

In other words one unit always picks another unit.

Lets consider the following situation: My unit (a brigade of 15 elements) fights against an enemy stack containing 2 units. Unit 1 is a brigade with 20 elements, unit 2 is an infantry-unit with 5 elements. I wonder about the possibilities for my elements/my unit to target either unit 1 or unit 2.

A. Does the possibility take into account the number of enemy elements?
My brigade will have a 80% (20 elements) chance to target enemy unit 1, and a 20% (5 elements) chance to target unit 2.

B. Does the possibility take into account the number of enemy units?
My brigade will have a 50% chance (1 unit) to target enemy unit 1, and a 50% chance (1 unit) to target enemy unit 2.

According to "B" it is really stupid to put seperate (non-brigaded) combat units (other than artillery and supply) into a stack as they might be confronted by a whole enemy brigade?

[Pocus]

the spreadsheet is in fact the xls about terrains costs and frontages
1. the quota in frontage for stacks in offensive during the battle
2. no, commitment is made element by element, not unit by unit... but targeting is done unit by unit, meaning a division will fire during a round only against the same unit, until destroyed
3. the first information relates to type of movement & speed indeed, the second is about the family of the element.
4. only intrinsic boni applies, not ones given by leaders... but some leaders can give a frontage bonus.
5. not sure about the article, but all terrains have differing frontage costs... there is though a difference between open terrains and closed terrains, where the leader will give more or less modifier depending of this nature of terrain (open or not) and his strategic rating.. here wood will be open IIRC and forest closed.
6. not exactly, the bonus comes from the CiC, as you define him, but the cost of the unit is using the posture of his stack, not of the CiC stack.

[Pocus]

33.1. How are targets picked in ranged combat? "A" or "B"?

This article (http://www.ageod.net/aacwwiki/Frontage) states, that elements of one unit/brigade always target enemy elements that are part of one enemy unit.

In other words one unit always picks another unit.

Lets consider the following situation: My unit (a brigade of 15 elements) fights against an enemy stack containing 2 units. Unit 1 is a brigade with 20 elements, unit 2 is an infantry-unit with 5 elements. I wonder about the possibilities for my elements/my unit to target either unit 1 or unit 2.

A. Does the possibility take into account the number of enemy elements?
My brigade will have a 80% (20 elements) chance to target enemy unit 1, and a 20% (5 elements) chance to target unit 2.

B. Does the possibility take into account the number of enemy units?
My brigade will have a 50% chance (1 unit) to target enemy unit 1, and a 50% chance (1 unit) to target enemy unit 2.

If "b" was correct, it is nonsense to seperatly put any units other than artillery into a stack.

Answer is C

The probability depends of the weights of the unit targeted. The weight is defined as the number of hits of the unit (sum of elements hits time their combat signature).

It can be a valid strategy to have meager and easily destroyed units along side big ones... They can lure somehow (few % chance yes) an unit to fire on them. Imagine a 24 elements brigade engaged against a squadron of cossacks... what a waste of opportunities

[JacquesDeLalaing]

oh...hehe...probability, possibility...who cares!

You're "the man", Pocus! arty:

Post 32: I was wondering if this spreadsheet is still (roughly) up to date and wheter spreadsheets for other terrain-types are available?

32.1. So the "attacker" has a big disadvantage! 80 "frontage-points" - that is 20 infantry-elements/4 infantry-units less than the defender (in fine weather)!
32.2. I'm still a little bit confused with that. At the beginning of each battle-round, a number of elements (to fill up the frontage) is randomly commited to combat. Then, the elements will pick their targets. Commited elements of 1 unit always target enemy elements of 1 enemy unit.

So it can happen, that only 2 elements out of a brigade of 20 elements are commited to combat. They both will target elements of 1 enemy unit. Also, if picked as a target, they will be confronted by the comitted elements of 1 enemy unit.

32.3. Thank you!
32.4. Thank you!
32.5. So the amount of frontage-bonus induced by the c-in-c in difficult terrain (any other than clear or woods) is not "0", but depends on his strategic rating (and in further consequence on his off./def. rating)
32.6. Thank you!

Post 32:
32.1. Sounds good to me! Only one mystery remains: what is a "combat signature"? Do you mean the distinction between support-unit and combat-unit, so that support-units are less likely to be targeted?
As you say it can be nice if an enemy brigade is unlucky and picks your "distraction"-unit of cossacks. On the other hand, if it picks a brigade, which has a lot of its elements commited to combat, the distribution of hits is probably more advantageous. (The cossack-unit is likely to be completely destroyed.)

[lodilefty]

Terrain spreadsheets for each game are included in the Modding Database files:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=5358

[JacquesDeLalaing]

yipiie!

Ehm...I downloaded the WiA-File and opened WiA_DB_Terrains_ver102b. I guess I have to type in the terrain or a region-name somewhere?
(PS. If it is more complicated than this, you don't need to explain it to me *g*)

PS: Everything fine now! I noticed that there are also tabs at the bottom of a xls-sheet

[JacquesDeLalaing]

1. Do roads affect battle frontage? I guess "no", because master Pocus said that only the "intrinsic" speed of elements counts...

2. What about the ATKFire0-6/DEFFire0-6 etc. values in the xls-spreadsheet? Are these modifications for the defender/attacker in battle-rounds 1-6? Maybe:
ATK/DEFFire: modifiers of the hit-chance of elements in ranged combat
ATK/DEFProt: protection boni/mali of elements (protection reduces the chance to be hit in ranged combat; maybe prot.-points are substracted from the shooting element's off./def. fire-rating?)
ATK/DEFQ: Modifies the "quality/discipline" of an element (important for close combat)? Or is this a frontage-quota-modifier (e.g. 1=25%)?

3. What do the two assault-values of elements mean? (x/y)

[JacquesDeLalaing]

At the moment, I'm trying to figure out how the hit-chance in ranged combat is calculated. This is something like the mysterious Coca-Cola-formula. apy:

My guess:

“off./def.-fire” x (1 -/+ “lots of factors”) x 0,04 = “chance to hit”

"lots of factors":
1. Quality of commanders:
=("column-leader off/def-rating" x 0,05 + "brigade-leader off/def-rating" x 0,03) - ("enemy column-leader off/def-rating" x 0,05 + "enemy brigade-leader off/def-rating" x 0,03); (may only be positive)
2. Activation-Status of commanders combined with enemy control (inactive leader and in 25% enemy territory: -0,25; capped at -0,35)
3. Terrain modifiers (according to terrain-sheet; e.g. attacker in mountain: -0,25)
4. Protection-value of targeted element (-0,04 per point of protection)
5. supply-status (when out of general supply and/or ammo)
6. supply-wagons (+0,1 when non-depleted supplywagon-element is present/committed)
7. weather modifiers (according to terrain-sheet; e.g. -0,1 in mud)
8. special orders (forced march, ambush)
9. cohesion-status (:2 as with movement speed?) (e.g. element is at 80% of maximum cohesion; 20%:2 = 10%; -0,1)
10. number of hits remaining (e.g. element has suffered 2 hits (=20%) out of max 10; -0,2) (probably divided by "x")

Is this anywhere close to truth?

Example:

My offensive infantry-element has an offensive-fire-value of 8.

1. It is led by a column-commander with a modified off-rating of "3" and by an untalented brigade-commander with off.-rating "0". (3x0,05=0,15) It shoots at an element which is led by a column-commander with a def.-rating of "3" and by a brigade-commander with a def.-rating of "4". (3x0,05 + 4x0,03=0,27). Thus, my element doesn't get any bonus (0,15-0,27= -0,12; only applied when positive!).
2. The commander of my element (in this case it is the column-leader) is active.
3. & 7. It is round 1 and my element fights in clear terrain and rainy weather. (attacker: 100% fire value, no protection gained or lost).
4. The targeted element is a "Kürassier"-element, so it gets 1 point protection. (-0,04)
5. My element is fully supplied.
6. There is a non-depleted friendly supply-wagon present in the battle. (+0,1)
8. No special orders given.
9. My element has marched many many miles in the last turn, so it is at 76% of its max. cohesion. (- 0,24 / 2 = -0,12)
10. My element is at full strength.

8 x (1 -0,04 [Kürassier-protection] + 0,1 [supply-wagon] - 0,12 [cohesion]) x 0,04 = 0,3008.

Thus, the element has a 30,08% to hit with its attempt. (The number of attempts is basically determined by the "rate of fire"-value.)

PS: I "updated" post 27 (combat mechanics)...

[JacquesDeLalaing]

It's me again: Lots of questions, few answers. Maybe you can give me some information on withdrawal? I need it in order to finish my AAR

Withdrawal-Decision

How do leaders decide whether to withdraw or not (before any phase/distance or round?)?

Before each round or distance (even before the first round!) a side (not a stack!) checks whether it decides to withdraw from combat. This check takes several factors into account:

1. What is the base chance?
How is it influenced by
2. the ratings of the commander-in-chief (according to the manual p. 51, only the off.-rating is relevant?),
3. the power ratio (of the committed elements of both sides only?),
4. the number/ratio of routed or shaken elements (already factored in the power-ratio? Is the withdrawal considered to be a rout when a certain proportion of committed elements are routed?),
5. by RoE
6. by fortifications

Withdrawal-Attempts

When a side decides to withdraw, then all their committed stacks have to test individually if they successfully retreat. I guess that stacks which have not been committed to combat so far (e.g. because they are passive and only the offensive and defensive stacks have been fighting) are always successful? Or maybe they do not test at all and are they engaged once all off/def. stacks have withdrawn?

This check takes several factors into account:

1. What is the base chance?
How is it influenced by
2. the strategic rating of the stack-commander (or still the c-in-c?)
3. the “relative size” of opposing forces (So we have an individually testing stack on the withdrawing side and maybe a lot of non-withdrawing, committed stacks on the other side? “Size” is measured in “power” or in “hits”? )
4. the presence of cavalry on both sides (Again, I wonder because the withdrawing force consists only of one stack, while the non-withdrawing force may consist of several stacks? How is “presence of cavalry” measured (in cavalry-“power” or in cavalry-“hits”?)?
5. Special orders/abilities (skirmishers, evade-fight-order, ambush-order)

[color="red"]PS: At least in my game, the "enter structure"-order doesn't work properly. E.g. I want my stack to enter a structure once it withdraws from a battle, so I leave it in the region and give the order to "enter structure". Unfortunately, the stack enters the structure on day 1, even though no movement-order has been given and no enemy has appeared. Usually the order should become "active" only when the stack moves (e.g. when it withdraws). [/color]

[Pocus]

I believe most of your questions can be answered within this link (manual, strategy guide):

http://www.ageod.net/aacwwiki/Main_Page

if not, then we will fill the gaps...

[JacquesDeLalaing]

I'm sorry to say: none of my questions are answered in the wiki, as the article on battles doesn't go into more detail than the manual. And the article on frontage also seems strange, as there are more elements involved per round (in RoP) than these article states. leure:

It would be really awesome to have a detailed manual! One could use one manual for all of your games! Please explain your games to the players so that they can comprehend what's going on - e.g. why have I lost this battle? Why did my super-force in the mountains retreat before the battle has even begun? I had such a big force - why does the detailed combat report say that the enemy deployed more elements than me? Is it better to defend behind a river than in the mountains? How should I organise my forces? How big is the influence of cohesion on my elements in battle? (E.g. we know there is an influence, but we cannot gauge its importance) etc. etc. Otherwise it feels like pushing around stacks, simply hoping for the best.

Don't get me wrong: I think that the game-mechanism is fantastic! You get so much more than the red/green battle-circle makes you believe! But if you don't read tons of posts in forums, you might never realise this depth! Au contraire, when you don't understand what's going on, you might get frustrated and think: I cannot influence these battles anyway....

Also, you see that the players in this forum keep puzzling and puzzling about lots of aspects and that there is a big need for explanations. Come on! Don't make it so hard for us!

[JacquesDeLalaing]

ZOC-Question:


I have 6 elements of Kürassiere in Torgau. As these elements have a patrol value of 6, my force creates 36 ZOC-points. That's fine. (Remember that passive forces do not create ZOC-points! That means: if you want to create ZOC-points in a region with a structure, your hide-value is automatically switched to 1: non-passive forces in regions with enemy/friendly structures automatically have their hide value set to 1. You can have an evade-combat order though and still create ZOC.).

The enemy creates 870 ZOC-Points (due to the fortification and his troops).

All my elements have an "evade"-value of 8, so the evasion points for this stack are 8 (+3 because it is a small force, I guess...).

Now my question: why do I need only 57% control in the adjacent regions in order to be allowed to enter them? I should need 870:11=79.