jscott991
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Playing as France

Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:18 pm

My last question was kind of ignored, but I found the answer out anyway (and will try to buy the game outside of Steam), but I have a few others that I thought I'd take a stab at.

I can't find any information or AARs about playing as France. The few AARs on Paradox's site ended very quickly or weren't that detailed.

Is the Second Empire modeled in the game?

If it is, is it destined to fall? In other words, can you still play as Napoleon III (or IV) beyond 1871?

Paradox's Victoria fails to model the Second Empire at all and if I bought PoN, I would be playing almost exclusively as France, so I was curious about how the country played, how the Second Empire was modeled, and just in general how France is treated.

Thanks.

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loki100
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Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:47 pm

I've not played France so this is a bit second hand (have discussed the game with those who have).

Its hard, the game does a good job at modelling first the perceived lack of legitimacy for the regime in its early years and then the pressure to make the 'liberal' Empire into a political reality. Also the lead up to the Franco-Prussian War is brutal, especially if you try to avoid the war. So you will need to have a decent grasp of the mechanics to keep militancy and contentment under control ... and even so will face challenges.

I believe that NIII has a 'death date' for 1870 regardless, but you'd need to check the event files for this. I'm not sure if the creation of the Third Republic is an event triggered by time or by the occurence of certain events
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Kensai
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Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:48 pm

You can play it alright. Of course you need to understand that Napoleon III is destined to eclipse either you win the Franco-Prussian War either not. If you are doing an AAR you will need to "roleplay" some other external event to justify it. These extremely long games are inevitable semi-hardcoded in certain events, it's natural.

Do not worry, France is extremely well portrayed in PON, you will have tons of fun!
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jscott991
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Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:48 pm

If France wins the Franco-Prussian War or avoids it, will the Second Empire inevitably fall?

If Napoleon III dies, does Napoleon IV take over or does it become a Republic?

I know I can change events to fix all this (I've had to become more experienced with modding ACW than I ever wanted to), but I am curious to see how it plays.

I'm really intrigued by this game because Victoria treats the first part of the game (from about 1836 to 1880) as a throw away, while most of the important events in Europe happened during this period (Crimean War, Italian War, Austro-Prussian War, and Franco-Prussian War).

Also, I'm a Second Empire fanatic.

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Random
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Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:11 pm

The biggest issue with France that I found was that the Paris Commune event will fire regardless of whether there has been a Franco-Prussian War or not. This event has huge and debilitating effects on France particularly if the economy is doing well, the domestic situation is under control and colonial affairs are proceeding satisfactory; that is to say the sort of small and nasty wars that make or break reputations and provide some experience to selected troops.

My solution was to cancel the Commune event and replay the turn that it fired on, an inelegant and possible overkill reaction but my ability to script events is still limited.

Other than that so far France in PON' 1850 GC is great fun and I'm now up to 1881.

-C

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loki100
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Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:03 pm

as to the Commune, its not that implausible, even after a victory. While the immediate trigger was the defeat and Paris feeling abandoned, the underlying reasons were unfinished business from 1848-51, the wider failure of the 'liberal' empire to be very liberal (or much of an Empire), and a meshing of industrial and political unrest.

but as ever, one can argue for any ahistoric sequence as being otherwise feasible.

To jsctott991, you'd really have to construct an almost new post-1871 event chain for France, as Kensai says, probably best to accept the Empire is over - could well have been a palace coup lead by the people around Thiers for example.

All in all, PoN is far more immersive than the (very) abstract Victoria manages. Also have a look at the 'help to improve' directory, there are revised event chains that will help the AI, for eg around Italian unificaton
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
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RoP The Mightiest Empires Fall
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jscott991
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Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:08 pm

Well, the Empire wasn't destined to fall in 1870, so I'd have to delete those events. I'm not going to play the game if the Empire is scripted to end, so I'll have to fix it somehow.

So Napoleon IV isn't even the game, I gather. That will be hard to construct.

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loki100
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Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:34 am

speak to Kensai

if you want the Second Empire to last you'll need to construct something like his Austrian mod.

A key part to PoN is it is hard to diverge completely from what happened, and that means a few arbitrary impositions. The alternative is the mid/late game problems that afficted Paradox's EU2/HOI2/V1 where scripted late game events bear no relationship to the world you have constructed.
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
PoN Manufacturing Italy; A clear bright sun
RoP The Mightiest Empires Fall
WIA Burning down the Houses; Wars in America; The Tea Wars

jscott991
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Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:28 pm

Well, there's no point really debating this because AGEOD isn't likely to change, but this is a very bizarre thing to impose on the world.

Does the game force the Kaiser to abdicate even if Germany wins the equivalent of WWI?

Does it kill the Tsar in 1917 even if Russia is peaceful and prosperous?

I think Paradox sometimes allows its games to be too sandboxy, but AGEOD seems to have erred really strongly on the side of determinism.

This probably kills this game for me. It never would have occurred to me that PoN would force the Third Republic on France no matter what the player or AI does. Oh well. At least I can pretend there's a Second Empire in Victoria.

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Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:13 pm

jscott991 wrote:Well, there's no point really debating this because AGEOD isn't likely to change, but this is a very bizarre thing to impose on the world.

Does the game force the Kaiser to abdicate even if Germany wins the equivalent of WWI?

Does it kill the Tsar in 1917 even if Russia is peaceful and prosperous?

I think Paradox sometimes allows its games to be too sandboxy, but AGEOD seems to have erred really strongly on the side of determinism.

This probably kills this game for me. It never would have occurred to me that PoN would force the Third Republic on France no matter what the player or AI does. Oh well. At least I can pretend there's a Second Empire in Victoria.


Hahahahaahahaha......
"Das Glück hilft dem Kühnen."

German Empire PON 1880 AAR:http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?35152-German-Empire-not-quite-an-AAR

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Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:14 pm

Sometimes? Oh my God...
"Das Glück hilft dem Kühnen."



German Empire PON 1880 AAR:http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?35152-German-Empire-not-quite-an-AAR

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loki100
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Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:13 pm

jscott991 wrote:Well, there's no point really debating this because AGEOD isn't likely to change, but this is a very bizarre thing to impose on the world.

...

This probably kills this game for me. It never would have occurred to me that PoN would force the Third Republic on France no matter what the player or AI does. Oh well. At least I can pretend there's a Second Empire in Victoria.


You are right that this is a basic design decision. The gain to the PoN event script model is that even in the late game, the events make sense (ie the main powers are more or less as you'd expect), this is a huge gain over the generation of Paradox games that were heavily scripted (EU2/HOI2/V1 etc) as by the mid-game those events often made no sense.

The other problem is that the game engine has to check every event every turn, to check if it is due to fire. So for simplicity there are no what-if or branching event chains. Kensai has done a great one on the basis of Austria winning the struggle for power in Germany. It would be fascinating to see one done for the continuation of the Second Empire, but it would be a player mod.

Things to think of is which of the major political events of the Third Republic would you keep .... without them you'd lose the domestic constraints on France that are in the game. Reducing France to an empty shell is going to make it too easy. You'd also have to answer some what-ifs. Would a continuing Empire have been stable? Would it have come to uneasy terms with Britain? How much emphasis would it have put on colonial issues?

I don't think its as simple as removing the Third Republic, extend Nap III's life and so on .... all reasons why the game is designed as it is. All in all, I personally find the constraints of historic SoIs/claims and the occasional reversion to what happened to be prices worth playing.
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
PoN Manufacturing Italy; A clear bright sun
RoP The Mightiest Empires Fall
WIA Burning down the Houses; Wars in America; The Tea Wars

Palpat
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Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:22 pm

IMHO the lack of what-ifs, especially for France, is one of the big PoN flaws.

PoN put the deterministic choice up to the point of sillyness. Allowing the Empire to survive its victory in 1870 is a basic... And it's not that hard to do some what if on who could be minister as the political elites would more or less be the same. Same for the big laws, are most 3rd Republic laws (education, association and even the separation of church & state) were part of late imperial projects.

jscott991
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Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:10 pm

Well, I bought it.

Napoleon IV is in the game. I see his model file.

But I'm not experienced enough to figure out how or when he becomes leader.

If anyone wants to give me some tips on how to keep the Empire alive until Napoleon III dies and then switch rulers to Napoleon IV, I'd really appreciate it.

czert2
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Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:37 pm

jup, very few ahistorical events is IMO flaw of PoN too, i will love more choices, even if "small ones" in basic terms. Like posible not selling of alaska to us if russia have enough money (and won/didnt waged that wars) so no reason to sell at first place.
samw with tsar case - and defeating of bolsheviks.
or even better - making russia "democratic" state from top. Why not have all reforms of 1905 civil uprising, but without uprising, earlier and peacefull way ?
And where is writen, that if france second empire will won 1870-71 war, it still will not be "doomed" to face same internal problems as third republick faces (in little different form). After all, what is diffrerene wit empire with imperial(istick) ambitions and republick with same imperial(istick) ambitions ?

Arakash
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Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:42 pm

czert2 wrote:jup, very few ahistorical events is IMO flaw of PoN too, i will love more choices, even if "small ones" in basic terms. Like posible not selling of alaska to us if russia have enough money (and won/didnt waged that wars) so no reason to sell at first place.

Just as an amusing anecdote, in my recent game its not something Russia has to worry about. Why? Because the Russian AI they gave It to the Prussian AI in a peace deal. :)
I think i was playing an older version anyway, but still, for the Russians in my game, its not their problem anymore.

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Kensai
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Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:10 pm

I think if we ever manage to get a v1.04 for this game and possibly a WWI DLC (don't bet on that now that the EAW is out, but hope dies last!) we can all work to write alternative reality events and modifications that allow for more diversion from what happened in real life. The main assumption in PON is that the player does what the real nation did in life, only trying to do things a little bit better. For all those events that simply don't make sense you either ignore them, mod them out, or try to "describe them" somehow in your AAR as unavoidable occurrences.

Consider it a limit of PON.
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czert2
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Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:50 pm

Arakash wrote:Just as an amusing anecdote, in my recent game its not something Russia has to worry about. Why? Because they gave It to Prussia in a peace deal. :)
I think i was playing an older version anyway, but still, for the Russians in my game, its not their problem anymore.


For that insult i will annex prussia part of poland and mayby even more in my russian game.

Arakash
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Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:50 am

czert2 wrote:For that insult i will annex prussia part of poland and mayby even more in my russian game.

:)
You shouldn't take it as an insult because it wasn't actually me but the Prussia AI that did that to Russia. I have no idea why the AI even wanted that, but thats what it got.

czert2
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Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:49 pm

Arakash wrote: :)
You shouldn't take it as an insult because it wasn't actually me but the Prussia AI that did that to Russia. I have no idea why the AI even wanted that, but thats what it got.


Ok,i accpet it was AI, still i will annex part of prussia because of it. After all, they were allway part of russia, they just did have meaninless P before it :) .

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Kensai
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Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:40 pm

Post screenshots when you do it! :p
Care to unify Germany as Austria? Recreate the Holy Roman Empire of the 20th Century:

Großdeutschland Mod

Are you tough enough to impersonate the Shogun and defy the Westerners? Prove it:

Shogun Defiance Mod (completed AAR)

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