User avatar
Jayavarman
Lieutenant
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:31 pm

Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:01 am

Pocus wrote:People interested in helping us can PM the following person: Generalisimo. Heis the beta coordinator and will ask you more details, like what you want to do and your time availability. Then you'll generally get some preliminary works to do before being accepted as full beta... This is necessary because on average 80% of the testers are only visible the first month and then drift in ghost mode...

I am sure that 80% really had a personal emergency that made them disappear! ;)

I do like that gateway test for full beta access. It is the first I have seen, and I like it. :)
"Sad fragility of human things! What riches and treasures of art will remain forever buried beneath these ruins; how many distinguished men - artists, sovereigns, and warriors - are now forgotten!"

"The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools."

tagwyn
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:09 pm

Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:39 pm

Phil: No, I am not good with Excel. Waiting, Patiently, several years in the USAF taught me the ability to wait. Larry3

User avatar
Franciscus
Posts: 4564
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:31 pm
Location: Portugal

Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:17 pm

Jayavarman wrote:Same here. My dream is to retire and just play, mod, and test games. :D


What, you too ?? :D

User avatar
Gray_Lensman
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:04 am
Location: Who is John Galt?

Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:19 am

deleted

User avatar
Stwa
Colonel
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:01 am

Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:08 pm

Pocus wrote:People interested in helping us can PM the following person: Generalisimo. Heis the beta coordinator and will ask you more details, like what you want to do and your time availability. Then you'll generally get some preliminary works to do before being accepted as full beta... This is necessary because on average 80% of the testers are only visible the first month and then drift in ghost mode...


Hehe, thats funny,

I volunteered a while back and I am already in ghost mode. :neener:

PascalB
Lieutenant
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:01 pm

Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:52 am

Hi everybody

I come really late on this thread but I'll certainly appreciate your new product!

I have a job, but if I can help you for something, you can pm me. (In French, I'm from Belgium :) )

For this new title I have a suggestion :
Diplomacy is often a simple thing in this kind of game, and I should appreciate that having relations with another country would mean much more implications and obligations for the major powers. With special events, economic or political obligations, politic tractation and warnings, etc.

Just my 2 cents

User avatar
Christophe.Barot
Posts: 1135
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Paris (France)

Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:55 am

PascalB wrote:Diplomacy is often a simple thing in this kind of game, and I should appreciate that having relations with another country would mean much more implications and obligations for the major powers. With special events, economic or political obligations, politic tractation and warnings, etc.


be sure we've been- staff and playtesters - working on it for some time - it's one of the main focus of the era and my personal main interest

there's of course a balance to find between the desirable and the possible, but be sure that, whenever the cursor will end, you sure won't be disappointed ;) - I guess Philthib, Pocus and many others will agree with me

still a bit patience

Mr Bill
Corporal
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:41 am

Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:01 am

PascalB wrote:For this new title I have a suggestion :
Diplomacy is often a simple thing in this kind of game, and I should appreciate that having relations with another country would mean much more implications and obligations for the major powers. With special events, economic or political obligations, politic tractation and warnings, etc.


I agree that diplomacy should be given special attention. It will definitely be a challenge to make a good diplomatic AI model, but I have hopes AGEOD can do the job. :thumbsup:

Some thoughts of what I'd like to see in the VGN diplomatic model: I would really like to see some sort of meaningful reputation system (much more in depth than the shallow one in Europa Universalis III) for nations to be taken into account by AI nations when it comes to how to interact with each other (of course there would be other factors as well like balance of power, and other national interests like economic and military security).

By reputation, I mean that nations that backstab or frequently back down on obligations tend to have tougher times getting favorable trade deals, alliances, etc. with nations they have wronged. The nations will remember how they treat each other, and it should be easier to ruin international relations than to build them up (as in real life).

This would serve to give players pause about whom they befriend and make enemies, for it wouldn't be as simple as "I'll just give nation X a gift of Y and they'll be my ally" like it is in many games. Instead, nations would have to work to curry favor and trust over years. Also, nations would be more willing to trust nations that keep their word (and also will take a respectable nations threats more seriously, though excessive bullying would be detrimental to reputation as well).

Admittedly, though, this idea of mine isn't fleshed out very much...but at least I had fun with that little brainstorm session. :D

wertheimer
Conscript
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Germany

Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:25 pm

I agree with Mr. Bill on this issue. Diplomacy is a very important issue for this time period. The only deviation to this line of thinking is not so much that countries have the reputation, but more so the current ruling government. This a time of revolution and governments and societies change. Granted there is always a residual reputation affect from the last ruling government, but a change in government can change how countries view each other (Bush admin to Obama admin to be the current case in point). Nailing diplomacy down will be a difficult task, but I believe an important for future masterpieces from our friends at AGEOD. I am one of the few who hopes for a future 30 yrs war game and I feel the diplomacy module is will be an important step toward that game with all the politics involved.

I am anxious to see future updates.

Pat W

vorkosigan
Private
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:29 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:47 pm

Last weekend I took part (and finished after 15 hours) a Pax Britannica (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1209) game... plenty of nice ideas of diplomacy mechanics in that game.

User avatar
Christophe.Barot
Posts: 1135
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Paris (France)

good reference

Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:36 pm

philippe thibaut and I at least (don't know for Pocus and others) have known and practised this game since long, as we did for SSI "imperialism", also known by Pocus

decision games (franco prussian war, risorgimento, crimean war, austro prussian war, russo turkish war, balkan war) boardgames, among others are also a precious source of inspiration

be sure this, and study of many international crisis , have been integrated in design thinking - still, it's in process, so a bit patience ;)

as a sidenote I like pax britannica a lot, especially it is amazing how the general flow of colonial history was accurately depicted by very simple means, like tempo of credit growth and commercial fleet placement, plus a handful of siple specific rules - some mechanisms (like chinese resentment table) then innovative, I consider a revolution in state of the art

Mr Bill
Corporal
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:41 am

Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:59 pm

Is balance of power going to be modeled in the game? I hope that is a major factor for influencing the actions of both player and AI nations.

User avatar
Hobbes
Posts: 4359
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:18 am
Location: UK

Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm

Pax Britannica looks like a very interesting game - but what the hell is that guy drinking?

Image
Attachments
Pax.jpg

User avatar
PhilThib
Posts: 13416
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:21 pm
Location: Meylan (France)

Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:11 pm

Ceylon Tea of course ;) :mdr:
Image

User avatar
Christophe.Barot
Posts: 1135
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Paris (France)

Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:44 pm

Mr Bill wrote:Is balance of power going to be modeled in the game? I hope that is a major factor for influencing the actions of both player and AI nations.


it is ! evaluation of relative strength is part of diplomacy module

expect also cold blood national interest calculations and nationalism play more role than a fictious "badboy" - still don't expect to be able to do everything anytime whatever the circumstances

User avatar
Dixicrat
General
Posts: 523
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:55 pm
Location: East Tennessee
Contact: ICQ

Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:55 am

Hobbes wrote:Pax Britannica looks like a very interesting game - but what the hell is that guy drinking?


Perhaps his Physician told him that he had to cut down to only one beer per day...?

User avatar
gunnergoz
Corporal
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:02 pm
Location: Sunny Sandy Ego, CA -- also known as San Diego or "America's Finest City" to the tourist i

Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:43 am

Ahh, cardboard counters all over a table top...brings back memories of my younger days. Except my "big gulp" mug would have been filled with 151 rum and coke! :bonk:
I didn't win often, but I sure had fun! :D

PascalB
Lieutenant
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:01 pm

Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:35 am

"Empire in arms" has also some interesting rules (even if no true politic system was included)

I think that some good models are also those who incorporate some "troc" systems within their diplomatic issues. By all time it was a base of diplomatic rules. It's a way often forgotten in many games.

User avatar
Comtedemeighan
Colonel
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:51 pm
Location: Beeri, Hadoram, Israel

Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:03 am

gunnergoz wrote:Ahh, cardboard counters all over a table top...brings back memories of my younger days. Except my "big gulp" mug would have been filled with 151 rum and coke! :bonk:
I didn't win often, but I sure had fun! :D


ah 151 that stuff is lethal like drinking gasoline :wacko:
Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem - By the Sword We Seek Peace, But Peace Only Under Liberty
-Massachusetts state motto-

"The army is the true nobility of our country."
-Napoleon III-

User avatar
Evans
Private
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:13 pm

Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:58 am

Christophe.Barot wrote:be sure we've been- staff and playtesters - working on it for some time - it's one of the main focus of the era and my personal main interest

there's of course a balance to find between the desirable and the possible, but be sure that, whenever the cursor will end, you sure won't be disappointed ;) - I guess Philthib, Pocus and many others will agree with me

still a bit patience


Any chance you could share some of what you've been cooking up? I've long thought that the traditional model for this type of game for relations (+200 to -200) is a really irrelevant method of diplomacy. It's shunted around by the injection of cash rather than based on any political considerations. In the real world alliegences are formed and relations conducted on the basis of alignment - it's all a question of who you want to be aligning with. E.g. in 1914 Austria was aligned strongly with Germany. Through most of the 19th century the Ottomans aligned with the British and French (or vice-versa, it was to combat Russia anyway).

There could be a division of nation types, for example you could have as in Victoria satellites and dominions, but also you could set status for varying degrees of influence or alignment for those countries that aren't considered Great Powers. So for example, in the late 19th century a policy of alignment by a weakening Austria (i.e. an Austria that is no longer a 'Great Power') towards Germany will see Austria move gradually under the sway of the Germans - determined by dependency, and the sway under which the lesser partner falls. There could be several statuses to pass through depending on the situation. It would be a much more elegant and nuanced system than the simple 'vassal', 'alliance', 'peace' and 'war' relationship system with a pointless number attached.

For the statuses, I was thinking perhaps something along these lines;

Neutral - the country tries to pursue a policy of non-alignment, e.g. Switzerland, Sweden.
Pro-X - the country is supportive of country X (where X is the country with closest alignment, could potentially be pro-several countries), examples abound.
Aligned with X - the country is actively aligned with country X, but is not dependent upon them.
Satellite - the country is 'independent' in theory, but in practice relies on another state to maintain its sovereignty. This can be an economic dependence or a military one. Weak Austria regarding Germany is an example, or for a modern example the Warsaw Pact nations relationship with the USSR (one could make a similar case to varying degrees for NATO countries and the USA)
Puppet of X - the country is ruled through a puppet or a governor or some-such, it's basically part of X but with some self-government, e.g. the British in Egypt or India.
Dominion of X - basically a puppet but without the connotations of being a de facto defeated state - more for those areas of an empire of a similar ethnicity/culture etc. that have been granted self-government e.g. Canada.

Just ideas anyway, thought they could be chucked on the mixer - I'd be interested in feedback just for the sake of them being game ideas for the period... :)

User avatar
Christophe.Barot
Posts: 1135
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Paris (France)

Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:24 pm

Evans wrote:Any chance you could share some of what you've been cooking up? I've long thought that the traditional model for this type of game for relations (+200 to -200) is a really irrelevant method of diplomacy. It's shunted around by the injection of cash rather than based on any political considerations.


I'll let Philthib and Pocus communicate about it when they see fit

as a general non specific remark relationship model (+200/-200 as you tell) is accurate or not depending on what you inject in it - if you inject cash, well ... depends on era, Richelieu paid subsidies to Swedes and German princes, if you inject dynastic bonds and religion mainly, can work.

so expect nationalism and imperialism era specificities been taken into account. If you think you can buy Alsace Lorraine to the french or german, or serbian friendship to the russians with cash, good luck.

You'll hear nothing else from me from now on. - philthib and pocus only.

User avatar
Evans
Private
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:13 pm

Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:04 pm

My point is that say in the modern world, Iran is not going to have -150 relations with the USA and +200 relations with France just because they decide to give the French a few gifts and things - France may be less hostile to the Iranians, and has some scope to deviate from the standard NATO/Western pattern - but they still maintain that basic alignment with the USA, capitalism and liberal democracy. Something like France - USSR relations in the 1930s are different of course, because back then France was a power on her own two feet; France wasn't aligning herself to a greater power (although she was allied to Britain).

My point I suppose is that without context relationship numbers alone can make for some strange diplomatic situations ala Vicky. Just give them money and they'll eventually love you? Why would you send gifts of money to your enemies anyway? It doesn't happen in the real world, diplomacy is handled on the basis of political factors. There's give and take, not just make a red number green by sending some donations... :) If the US wanted to solve the problem they have in international relations with Iran they can't just donate a bunch of dollars to the Iranians. The point is the US doesn't like their ideological stance or the removal of their influence over that country's oil (debates on the rights and wrongs of this aside), and Iran conversely resents the interference of a hegemonic power.

User avatar
Christophe.Barot
Posts: 1135
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:55 pm
Location: Paris (France)

Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:42 pm

Christophe.Barot wrote:so expect nationalism and imperialism era specificities been taken into account. If you think you can buy Alsace Lorraine to the french or german, or serbian friendship to the russians with cash, good luck.


did I say anything else ? :D

many factors will play on relations, not cash (or marginally, for a minor, if he needs and gets help that way)

up to Philthib and Pocus now :)

User avatar
McNaughton
Posts: 2766
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:47 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:30 pm

Realistically +/- 200 is a representation of hostility between nations, a completely reasonable method of determining relationships. At +200 you are the best of the best in regards to diplomatic relationships, pretty much they do what you request, and you the same. At 0 you are ambivolent to one another. At -200 you deteste each other. Any way you factor it, it is a representation of relations.

However, where the real beef here is with the method at which relations change in other games. The fact that you throw money at nations increases relations is logical, yet can become so abusively illogical that this aspect is what I believe is what is at the real issue, rather than rating relations with a number (rather than a word).

I for one do not know of how relations will be rated, but a number is probably more accurate than a word. However, maybe accuracy here is not what is in the best interest of a realistic interpretation?

tagwyn
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:09 pm

Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:20 pm

Me too! I won most of the time time. Beating David was so much fun! Altoids!!! Those things are horrible!!! Yuck. t

Mowers
Captain
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:37 pm

Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:34 am

Stick to a simple diplomatic model, a more basic model will give better results most of them. As much as I love paradox's work, Paradox's diplomatic model doesn't really work and is overly complex.

User avatar
REBELCAT
Colonel
Posts: 381
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:31 am
Location: Barcelona

Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:42 pm

arsan wrote:Want

Play with Spain!! :grr: :niark:
And... you could also add the Ottomans...
Playing with declining nations is also fun!!! :nuts:

Cheers
Arsan


:thumbsup: and I
Image

User avatar
TheDoctorKing
Posts: 1664
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:56 pm
Location: Portland Oregon

Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:23 am

I like the idea of playing with weaker nations. There were some "near misses" during this period - countries that might have become industrialized modern nations but for poor political decisions or poor luck. Argentina and China spring to mind.

User avatar
Hohenlohe
Posts: 588
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:24 pm
Location: Munich

Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:57 am

Do not forget Egypt.It has a modern army and navy around 1850,it tried some industrialization,but because of the high expenses it went bankrupt around 1870 and sold its suez canal shares to GB and lost its political autonomy and independance due to this to GB.
But I think it will be very difficult to get enough data about Egypt or the Ottomans due to the fact that most of the data exists only in turkish or arabic.
But it would be nice to play some minor powers like Argentina or Brazil or Paraguay or Mexico or the Ottomans to see if there would be chance to make a better stand compared with history.

greetings

Hohenlohe :coeurs:
R.I.P. Henry D.

In Remembrance of my Granduncle Hans Weber, a Hungaro-German Soldier,served in Austro-Hungarian Forces during WWI,war prisoner, missed in Sibiria 1918...

User avatar
PhilThib
Posts: 13416
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:21 pm
Location: Meylan (France)

Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:15 am

We already have some interesting info on Egypt, so it is updated :thumbsup: :coeurs:
Image

Return to “Pride of Nations”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests