While I love this game, the economic crisis mechanism is just no fun, no fun at all. Nor does it seem to fit the economic realities of the time.
The game is quite challenging with the latest patch, even without the economic crisis. Like many others, I want to concentrate on the military and colonial aspects of the game, as well as trying to take in game actions that will facilitate technology. I dislike being bogged down in the economy after the first couple of years.I do not know how the AI can cope with it. This mechanism, which is unpredictable and seems random, can really detract from the enjoyment of this magnificent game.
If a game mechanism is no fun, and not particularly realistic, why keep it?
If the devs want to keep the mechanism, could you give us an option to play without it?
Hi vaalen, as I remember correct there were many bankruptices in those time even in France and the Ottoman Empire or in Spain.France got in the sixties the Mexico scandal or the Suez Canal Shares Affair if I am not wrong thus there were some economic crisis'.
But there must be then some possibilities to correct the crisis but I do not know how...
greetings
Hohenlohe
But there must be then some possibilities to correct the crisis but I do not know how...
greetings
Hohenlohe
R.I.P. Henry D.
In Remembrance of my Granduncle Hans Weber, a Hungaro-German Soldier,served in Austro-Hungarian Forces during WWI,war prisoner, missed in Sibiria 1918...
In Remembrance of my Granduncle Hans Weber, a Hungaro-German Soldier,served in Austro-Hungarian Forces during WWI,war prisoner, missed in Sibiria 1918...
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yellow ribbon
- Posts: 2245
- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:42 pm
ok, no one shall wonder that i totally agree with Vaalen, not after my numberless posts regarding this topic in different places:
first, Pocus announced it already, they will at least have another look for the problems.
second,
The Panic of 1857
Panic and Depression 1869-1871
The Panic of 1873-1879
The Panic of 1893
The Panic of 1896
The Panic of 1901-Market Fails
The Panic of 1901- At The Stock Exchange
The Panic of 1907
The Panic of 1910/11
The POST WW1 Depression
AND A LOT OF NATIONAL HICKUPS, RECESSIONS...whatever you want to call them...
third,
NONE, LITERALLY NOT EVEN ONE had any impact comparable with games design.
sometimes you have a total withdraw of foreign capital triggering a structural break up to over 30% lowered business activity.
you also find world trade declining, of course.
but you find at the same time some industries and resource extraction growing with 300, 500, even 800% within 10. 15, 20 years (depending of the country you are interested in.
thus inflation was comparable low.
and for sake of the game the original idea of inflation inflicting higher structures costs would have done.
fourth,
[color="Red"]lets say you play Belgium with an administration rank of 8. it gives you a bonus of 3x5%
lets use a RR with budgeted costs of 500 PC
minus 15% == about 425 PC
now 20% added and you are about 510 PC IN A WORLD CRISIS[/color]
after that you still have to pay for rough terrain, up to 30% additional costs, or not...
so, it not a crisis at all, only a bad joke!
PROBLEM as i explained it again and again:
[color="Red"]CRISIS is selfsustaining![/color] (at the moment, devs work on it, unfortunately AGAIN!)
its triggered by too much PC and too much inflation tested on global scale of (major nations)
it gives you penalties IN HIGH INFLATION and thus higher building costs and thereby more idle capital in the accounts.
its giving you exact the situation it is triggered from! devs decided just to hotfix it, especially tweaking AIs patterns... we have to live with that.
i got SIX crisis between mid 1852 and January 1864. I never reduced my inflation to zero before the next crisis. up to American Civil War i NEVER EVER produced any inflation on my own.
well, the devs have to set priorities and thus repaired the economic crisis system.
giving players a reform against inflation, the AI even more mechanism...
but this idea failed ...AGAIN...
since crisis comes again, again and again, the problem from it (happiness, militancy) destroy the game in a dozen years (in the worst case and if you play nations with NON-closed economies)
first, Pocus announced it already, they will at least have another look for the problems.
second,
The Panic of 1857
Panic and Depression 1869-1871
The Panic of 1873-1879
The Panic of 1893
The Panic of 1896
The Panic of 1901-Market Fails
The Panic of 1901- At The Stock Exchange
The Panic of 1907
The Panic of 1910/11
The POST WW1 Depression
AND A LOT OF NATIONAL HICKUPS, RECESSIONS...whatever you want to call them...
third,
NONE, LITERALLY NOT EVEN ONE had any impact comparable with games design.
sometimes you have a total withdraw of foreign capital triggering a structural break up to over 30% lowered business activity.
you also find world trade declining, of course.
but you find at the same time some industries and resource extraction growing with 300, 500, even 800% within 10. 15, 20 years (depending of the country you are interested in.
thus inflation was comparable low.
and for sake of the game the original idea of inflation inflicting higher structures costs would have done.
fourth,
[color="Red"]lets say you play Belgium with an administration rank of 8. it gives you a bonus of 3x5%
lets use a RR with budgeted costs of 500 PC
minus 15% == about 425 PC
now 20% added and you are about 510 PC IN A WORLD CRISIS[/color]
after that you still have to pay for rough terrain, up to 30% additional costs, or not...
so, it not a crisis at all, only a bad joke!
PROBLEM as i explained it again and again:
[color="Red"]CRISIS is selfsustaining![/color] (at the moment, devs work on it, unfortunately AGAIN!)
its triggered by too much PC and too much inflation tested on global scale of (major nations)
it gives you penalties IN HIGH INFLATION and thus higher building costs and thereby more idle capital in the accounts.
its giving you exact the situation it is triggered from! devs decided just to hotfix it, especially tweaking AIs patterns... we have to live with that.
i got SIX crisis between mid 1852 and January 1864. I never reduced my inflation to zero before the next crisis. up to American Civil War i NEVER EVER produced any inflation on my own.
well, the devs have to set priorities and thus repaired the economic crisis system.
giving players a reform against inflation, the AI even more mechanism...
but this idea failed ...AGAIN...
since crisis comes again, again and again, the problem from it (happiness, militancy) destroy the game in a dozen years (in the worst case and if you play nations with NON-closed economies)
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yellow ribbon
- Posts: 2245
- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:42 pm
deoved, you bring me in a uncomfortable situation, to quote myself:
what you asked for, i have suggested and "we" have tried to mod it for weeks now...
the key to simulate anything like the originally desired effect IS THE DOMESTIC MARKET
no need to work with inflation during that time period, simply business activity in the whole economy of a nation.
since maintenance is zero as long a structure is closed it wont do anything.
a hit in any economic crisis which aimed the domestic sells will have the desired effect. less PC !!!
lower the rate of domestic sells for the time of economic crisis and you delete most problems. effects on happiness and militancy are well balanced and should remain.
additionally a temporary limited negative multiplicator effect on worldtrade is desirable (this can be changed at every modders every kitchen table, easy to be modded)
since economic crisis brings also a penalty of 1000 PC you have to pay, the penalty on PC is for some nations far above 20%.
A crisis duration depends on when you are "infected" of it. thatmakes sure you dont have a non linear problem and is balanced, shall remain either.
i suppose form their action, that the devs will not have time for major changes.
its about modding!
unfortunately "we" have already tried it and run into two new problems...
what you asked for, i have suggested and "we" have tried to mod it for weeks now...
the key to simulate anything like the originally desired effect IS THE DOMESTIC MARKET
no need to work with inflation during that time period, simply business activity in the whole economy of a nation.
since maintenance is zero as long a structure is closed it wont do anything.
a hit in any economic crisis which aimed the domestic sells will have the desired effect. less PC !!!
lower the rate of domestic sells for the time of economic crisis and you delete most problems. effects on happiness and militancy are well balanced and should remain.
additionally a temporary limited negative multiplicator effect on worldtrade is desirable (this can be changed at every modders every kitchen table, easy to be modded)
since economic crisis brings also a penalty of 1000 PC you have to pay, the penalty on PC is for some nations far above 20%.
A crisis duration depends on when you are "infected" of it. thatmakes sure you dont have a non linear problem and is balanced, shall remain either.
i suppose form their action, that the devs will not have time for major changes.
its about modding!
unfortunately "we" have already tried it and run into two new problems...
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yellow ribbon
- Posts: 2245
- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:42 pm
PS:
a static solution of making things more expensive, or just cutting 20% of income will not work, due to the trade mechanism.
see my example here:
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showpost.php?p=219600&postcount=1
even with gold, luxuries and colonial goods i am not able to pay my expenses, for trade volume lowers the prices too fast...
think about 20% fewer PC and that low prices already in the 1860s and you will calculate how many thousands of goods you need to export even to finance a steady state....
(of course not as SP or OE
)
a static solution of making things more expensive, or just cutting 20% of income will not work, due to the trade mechanism.
see my example here:
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showpost.php?p=219600&postcount=1
even with gold, luxuries and colonial goods i am not able to pay my expenses, for trade volume lowers the prices too fast...
think about 20% fewer PC and that low prices already in the 1860s and you will calculate how many thousands of goods you need to export even to finance a steady state....
(of course not as SP or OE
)yellow ribbon wrote:ok, no one shall wonder that i totally agree with Vaalen, not after my numberless posts regarding this topic in different places:
first, Pocus announced it already, they will at least have another look for the problems.
second,
The Panic of 1857
Panic and Depression 1869-1871
The Panic of 1873-1879
The Panic of 1893
The Panic of 1896
The Panic of 1901-Market Fails
The Panic of 1901- At The Stock Exchange
The Panic of 1907
The Panic of 1910/11
The POST WW1 Depression
AND A LOT OF NATIONAL HICKUPS, RECESSIONS...whatever you want to call them...
third,
NONE, LITERALLY NOT EVEN ONE had any impact comparable with games design.
sometimes you have a total withdraw of foreign capital triggering a structural break up to over 30% lowered business activity.
you also find world trade declining, of course.
but you find at the same time some industries and resource extraction growing with 300, 500, even 800% within 10. 15, 20 years (depending of the country you are interested in.
thus inflation was comparable low.
and for sake of the game the original idea of inflation inflicting higher structures costs would have done.
fourth,
[color="Red"]lets say you play Belgium with an administration rank of 8. it gives you a bonus of 3x5%
lets use a RR with budgeted costs of 500 PC
minus 15% == about 425 PC
now 20% added and you are about 510 PC IN A WORLD CRISIS[/color]
after that you still have to pay for rough terrain, up to 30% additional costs, or not...
so, it not a crisis at all, only a bad joke!
PROBLEM as i explained it again and again:
[color="Red"]CRISIS is selfsustaining![/color] (at the moment, devs work on it, unfortunately AGAIN!)
its triggered by too much PC and too much inflation tested on global scale of (major nations)
it gives you penalties IN HIGH INFLATION and thus higher building costs and thereby more idle capital in the accounts.
its giving you exact the situation it is triggered from! devs decided just to hotfix it, especially tweaking AIs patterns... we have to live with that.
i got SIX crisis between mid 1852 and January 1864. I never reduced my inflation to zero before the next crisis. up to American Civil War i NEVER EVER produced any inflation on my own.
well, the devs have to set priorities and thus repaired the economic crisis system.
giving players a reform against inflation, the AI even more mechanism...
but this idea failed ...AGAIN...
since crisis comes again, again and again, the problem from it (happiness, militancy) destroy the game in a dozen years (in the worst case and if you play nations with NON-closed economies)
Yellow Ribbon, I have read a number of your posts, but I wanted to experience it for myself, and I have, unfortunately. You are absolutely right, no crisis of the time had anywhere near the impact that PON crisis have, not even close. And the crisis is self sustaining. So I wanted to add my own observation, that this is no fun and really detracts from the enjoyment of an otherwise fantastic game.
The economic crisis was not in the original design, and it is an idea that just does not work, and really detracts from the fun of the game. I believe it was introduced to slow down economic growth, but there are other ways to do that.
I have found that the coal shortage has really slowed the pace of my economic expansion, which slows the pace of military growth and colonial expansion, but this does in no way ruin the game for me, as the shortage does ease, over time.
Does anybody, even one person, enjoy this crisis mechanism?
I have yet to see anyone praise it.
I have the greatest respect for the Phils and Ageod. Gentlemen, please listen to us and either remove the mechanism or give us the option to play without it. It is ruining your masterpiece.
Here is an idea.
If the problem the economic crisis is supposed to solve is too much private capital accumulating, why not have wastage occur once the amount of private capital passes a certain level?
This would be quite realistic, as an excess of funds in real life often results in their being wasted through corruption, spending on luxuries, etc.
It would be important not to set the level too low, because a well managed and developed economy should result in a wealthy nation that can afford to do a lot of things.
This would avoid the inflation, militancy, unhappiness, and the other factors that wind up ruining the game.
If the problem the economic crisis is supposed to solve is too much private capital accumulating, why not have wastage occur once the amount of private capital passes a certain level?
This would be quite realistic, as an excess of funds in real life often results in their being wasted through corruption, spending on luxuries, etc.
It would be important not to set the level too low, because a well managed and developed economy should result in a wealthy nation that can afford to do a lot of things.
This would avoid the inflation, militancy, unhappiness, and the other factors that wind up ruining the game.
Hohenlohe wrote:Hi vaalen, as I remember correct there were many bankruptices in those time even in France and the Ottoman Empire or in Spain.France got in the sixties the Mexico scandal or the Suez Canal Shares Affair if I am not wrong thus there were some economic crisis'.
But there must be then some possibilities to correct the crisis but I do not know how...
greetings
Hohenlohe
Hi Hohenlohe,
Everything you said is accurate, but none of these had a huge impact like they do in the game. Besides, the crisis mechanism is just not enjoyable, and can easily ruin the game. It also punishes you for economic success, which is unreasonable.
I think a far easier solution would be to have wastage once private capital passes a certain level, which is realistic, considering corruption, etc.
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yellow ribbon
- Posts: 2245
- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:42 pm
"If the problem the economic crisis is supposed to solve is too much private capital accumulating, why not have wastage occur once the amount of private capital passes a certain level?"
its already there, NEW BUSINESSMEN EMERGENCE just google it its discussed since June as a game killer for many situations
i remember 1861 i had to build 30% of the economy again (the part went to CSA) and had about 5000 PC (no taxes were set) while NBE factor was about MINUS 700-800 PC
as i said, static solutions will not work. at least not as long the percentage is calculated.
would be complicate to use an indice (value with a basis of 1) and operating with basis points below and above. this as floating system would also need data for every 5 or 10 year period...
too much to do then.
its already there, NEW BUSINESSMEN EMERGENCE just google it its discussed since June as a game killer for many situations
i remember 1861 i had to build 30% of the economy again (the part went to CSA) and had about 5000 PC (no taxes were set) while NBE factor was about MINUS 700-800 PC
as i said, static solutions will not work. at least not as long the percentage is calculated.
would be complicate to use an indice (value with a basis of 1) and operating with basis points below and above. this as floating system would also need data for every 5 or 10 year period...
too much to do then.
yellow ribbon wrote:"If the problem the economic crisis is supposed to solve is too much private capital accumulating, why not have wastage occur once the amount of private capital passes a certain level?"
its already there, NEW BUSINESSMEN EMERGENCE just google it its discussed since June as a game killer for many situations
i remember 1861 i had to build 30% of the economy again (the part went to CSA) and had about 5000 PC (no taxes were set) while NBE factor was about MINUS 700-800 PC
as i said, static solutions will not work. at least not as long the percentage is calculated.
would be complicate to use an indice (value with a basis of 1) and operating with basis points below and above. this as floating system would also need data for every 5 or 10 year period...
too much to do then.
Yellow Ribbon, you are right, it is already there. Truth is, I was making so much private capital before the economic crisis that I never noticed it until I just used the tool tip and found that about twelve percent of my income was being deducted for this.
It is not a problem for me, except that I feel like a fool for making a suggestion that was already in place.
So I will retract my already implemented suggestion to simply ask that the Economic crisis mechanism be withdrawn, or that we be given an option not to use it.
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yellow ribbon
- Posts: 2245
- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:42 pm
yellow ribbon wrote:i know, i have spoken that many times for exactly this kind of events and should be happy that the event is there and just needs to be adapted to different historical dates...
but i got a economic crisis AND an event in the same year... inflation goes into the sky...
That needs fixing.
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