Schattensand
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German unification

Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:24 am

Is a german unification by force possible, with the result of the second Kaiserreich - Germany. Or is the long peaceful process the only way, that leads to Kaisereich and full colonial options?

Cruzeiro
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:29 am

There are ways to unite Germany peacefully and historically by warfare.

However, the event chain seems to be broken or suffers from problems at least. I chose the historical way.
I was not sure if you need to pass the loyalty checks with all German minors during this way, too, but I did. For the Northern German Confederation you need
Holstein (not completely sure about this, I did anyways), Hannover, Saxony and the two Hessian minors. Get loyality above 60 % via regional unification decision and wait for the unification acceptance message.

First event: Duchies Crisis in 1863 earliest. Denmark annexes Schleswig-Holstein and you´ll be given a CB against them. Declare war on them and grab both provinces. Here I encountered the first issue. When you occupy Slesvig and Holstein war is ended automatically but Holstein remains Danish territory although it is supposed to become independant again (according to the event description).

Next Event: Austro-Prussian-War in 1866 earliest. The German State Crisis creates a CB against Austria for you. Cancel any alliance you may still have and declare war. Conquer the Bohemian provinces (Erzgebirge, Koeniggraetz, Pilsen) and the Peace of Nikolsburg triggers. Accept it. It´s broken though as you still need to make a peace treaty manually. No automatic war ending as supposed to.

Next Event: Forming the Northern German Confederation in 1867 earliest. Now you need positive loyal checks of the northern minors mentioned above. Event is broken, too or at least hampered by ongoing wars in the midst of Germany. In my game Austria had occupied Slesvig and Wurttemberg. The Netherlands had occupied Hannover. I still trusted on positive loyal checks to be sufficient, but that did not seem to be the case. The event never fired. It´s probably necessary to have all minors unoccupied and sovereign. That was the moment where I had enough of that broken event chain not firing although requirements were met. I used the console and entered "ForceEvent evt_nam_PRU_NorthGermanConfederation1867" to "repair" the issues and founded the Northern German Confederation by force. Ugly method, I know, but at least I was able to continue playing historically without further manipulation of game data.

Next Event: Franco-Prussian War in 1870 earliest. You´ll get a CB against France. Declare war and occupy Alsace and Lorraine, not necessarily Paris (although I had it). The event "Imperial Germany" fires after the occupation of both provinces and the Northern German Confederation absorbs Bavaria, Wurttemberg and Baden and transforms into "Germany". Another issue here, too: The event does not end the Franco-Prussian War automatically, you need to settle peace manually. Another problem: you can only demand Alsace as a war gain. Lorraine is not included as it should be. However, I simply demanded Alsace and let Lorraine be. That story needed to be finished finally.

Wurttemberg was still occupied by the Austrians though. So I had to declare war on them again afterwards and demand it as a war gain.

And finally it was finished. You see, the German unification is hampered by many gameplay problems. Needs to be fixed. There are several events in between not firing (especially the forced alliance events, for example: Prussian-Italian Alliance in the Austro-Prussian war and several others which are included in the events folder).

Schattensand
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:44 am

First thx for the work, may be it helps even other Prussian players.
That is more or less simply historic, so Phil wrote that with open beta it does not take that long anymore.

What I had hoped to hear is yes convince them how nice it is to be german, then take them by force or good talk and you have your Empire and can start the colonisation.

For me it is start 55 now. My economy stands and does only need small adjustment. My military is the biggest, far bigger than even the russian.
They (AI) all seem to have stopped enlarging the army.
Belgium DOWed me and I keep it occupied for 2 years now.
Ok I started funding, I ship Barth around the world to pee on every soil, where somehow Germany is mentioned. What else to do then?
I started building a fleet to intervene in GB, in case Vicky gets closer to win and end the game. But that is not really what I want to do.
I want to colonise and for years and years I will not be able to do that.
It could be easily possible to DOW France or Austria just now, but there is no sense in that for I will not get the Kaiserreich this way.
Hm. Is there anything exiting happening between 55 and 63?
Do the other german dutchies still exist after unification? That would be historical.
Do you get hold on that national armies and leaders?
I start thinking, that France would have been the better choice for the game,
if I would not be so archgerman in games, not at all in real life so.
But in the end complaining is more than useless and all the stratgameplayers must have a good deal of Leidensfähigkeit (ability to endure suffering ) dont know the english expression for that.
I like this game for that it is after Great Invasions the next Ageod game that does not have this -
Underdog can win, if he makes all right at the beginning and Alpha dog will win after initial setbacks in the long run. -
scheme.
And I hate it for its long loading time and so many ctds.
But I start blablaing.
Thanks a lot for this - How it goes -.

Cruzeiro
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:26 am

Ah, now I got what you really meant. I thought you were looking for steps of the unification process. But it seems you were aiming at a more general level --- my fault.

Prussia is a very interesting choice thanks to its geographic position in central Europe. You have possibilities everywhere directly around you. The French in the west, the Austrians in the south and the Russians to the east. But if you like to stick to history like me you´ll face technical problems. But I´m looking forward to see them solved in future patches. This game is insanely addictive afterall.

My personal opinion about the German game: it became even much more interesting after unification in 70 when more colonial options popped up. Colonization is an extremely slow and exhausting process though. Most of your explorations, prospections and other decisions fail all the time. However, if you manage to acquire your first protectorate status, it´s really, REALLY a satisfying feeling :thumbsup:

It´s 1876 now and I´ve at least managed to declare Togoland and Angola to formal colonies. They´re MINE. after all the work :) Next to them I was able to declare Dahomey and Ulundi to protectorates. And I´m currently working on Nigeria and Madagaskar. Eastern Africa will follow if there is time left. Compared to the other major powers it´s still quite a small colonial realm. But the second half of the campaign is still left. We will see to what that leads ;)

By the way, Angola was a lucky incident. The Portuguese had already built many buildings there when a crisis happened and ownership was passed to me. Lucky one! Raising its status to protectorate and formal colony was relatively easy then.

Schattensand
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:58 am

No it was just that.
I wanted to know how the unification process works. I had no clue at all.
In many posts (now I found out that paradoxforum is dealing with pon too, and there are many post on this issue as you know and I now too) they talk about the peacefull process as if the violent way is an option too.
Then you DOW the duchies and sit your time out.
Do you know, if it is possible to come to unification by annexing them?
And what are the nice events (Phil talkes about), one misses, if one does not take the peacefull way?
What you decribed in your long first post or are there still other goodies?
I believe, that you have some fun now as colonisation ( as far away it is to us in reality now) is under way.
And I agree it is addictive, very much so. I had my WOW times for years and that was far worse. At the end somebody broke my account and I got finally to an end with it. Good riddance.

Cruzeiro
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:49 pm

I haven´t tried annexing the minors. But considering that you can always demand occupied minor provinces as a war gain from occupying nations like Austria I guess it should be possible, too.

I don´t know which events Phil meant as I sticked to history in my game. If you look into "German Unification Events" file via the editor apparently there are different ways and different sub-events. I cannot become more concrete though as I don´t have any experience with modding and coding.

I´ve never played WOW although I know everyone around me was affected by the global WOW madness ;)

I once played Diablo 2 for several years. That was addictive, too. But games in style of PoN are much more of my taste. Complex world politics and leading
grand nations (Ich bin übrigens selber deutsch, also keine Notwendigkeit irgendwelcher Übersetzungen ;) ) is my absolute favourite and will always be. I´m grateful for the upcoming of titles like Vicky, EU, HoI and PoN.

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Pocus
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:22 pm

This is a most pleasing post, Cruzeiro. It is always a good feeling when the pieces of the puzzle snap together, as you seem to indicate, and with such a big design and project as PON, it was not a given.

And yes, we know there are still tons of things to do to make the game better ;)
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

Cruzeiro
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Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:35 pm

I´m confidently looking forward to it. I expect that it will still take some time to optimize various elements, but the game is at least already playable. And it´s becoming better with each fixed error :)

Offworlder
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:04 pm

One problem I'm finding is that prior to unification, Austria just gobbles up the smaller German states. Frankly that is historically impossible because Austria was essentially allied to every German state (even Prussia) in the 50's and early '60's. So much so, that in the Austro-Prussian War, the bulk of the German states marched alongside the Austrians against Prussia. I believe that maybe it is better if the minor German States are actually allied to Austria initially and only after an Austro-Prussian war would such states be up for grabs.

Another quirk is the way that alliances work. Austria is allied with Russia. That means that as soon as the Crimean War breaks out, S-P is literally overrun by the combined might of AH and Russia. The French just sit by (possibly they are not allied to S-P) and the Brits never get involved unless AH declares war upon them. Is it possble somehow to detach AH from Russia and script a Crimean invasion?S-P has no chance of expanding.

One last thing that I'm finding as I play along is the fact that the AI seems to prefer creating small brigade size units rather than 'saving' points to create corps etc. I've seen this for the Russians, French and Austrians mostly.

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PhilThib
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Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:28 am

Normally, the alliance between Russia and Austria ends with the Crimean crisis event....I need to check if the sequence works well then :confused:

Regarding your suggestion of an alliance with all the German minors, that could be working, except the trick that those German minors would be involved in wars where Austria is involved (e.g. against S-P) and the end result would not be good...

We are tweaking the AI so that Austria avoids agressing German minors...now we can't prevent a player to do so...I was planning may be that if Austria is at war with any German minor, then it gives Prussia a CB against her, and also may be cancels Russian alliance...?

We need to find a way to explain these to the players however... :bonk:
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PhilThib
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Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:28 am

Normally, the alliance between Russia and Austria ends with the Crimean crisis event....I need to check if the sequence works well then :confused:

Regarding your suggestion of an alliance with all the German minors, that could be working, except the trick that those German minors would be involved in wars where Austria is involved (e.g. against S-P) and the end result would not be good...

We are tweaking the AI so that Austria avoids agressing German minors...now we can't prevent a player to do so...I was planning may be that if Austria is at war with any German minor, then it gives Prussia a CB against her, and also may be cancels Russian alliance...?

We need to find a way to explain this to the players however... :bonk:
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StephenT
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Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:51 am

PhilThib wrote:Regarding your suggestion of an alliance with all the German minors, that could be working, except the trick that those German minors would be involved in wars where Austria is involved (e.g. against S-P) and the end result would not be good...
Does the game currently only include full two-way alliances? A defensive alliance or guarantee that only applies if a member country is attacked - but not if it attacks someone else - might simulate the German Confederation better.

Hstorically, every German state, including Austria and Prussia, had a defensive alliance as part of the German Confederation - declaring war on one of them meant declaring war on all of them. That's pretty much what happened in 1866 - Prussia announced it was leaving the Confederation and virtually every German state except Mecklenberg declared war on them.

(To be even more accurate, Austria's territory outside the Confederation's border was not covered by this defensive alliance. If Sardinia-Piedmont attacked her Italian holdings, the rest of the German states were not obliged to help: only if Sardinian armies crossed into German-speaking lands would they incur an automatic declaration of war from the Confederation. I suspect that would need to be covered by events, though.)

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PhilThib
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Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:25 pm

I knew about this, but it's much too complex for the engine to handle the case properly. Defensive alliances are an all-or-nothing stuff, if you get attacked in Antartica by Penguins, your allies will jump to the rescue :mdr:
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Offworlder
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Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:33 pm

Don't know if its possible, but could such an alliance be bound with territory? Or maybe make the small German States out of bounds for every other power kind of frozen out of the game. Or make the small states allied with both Austria and Prussia, but have their armies locked untill the Schleswig wars or Austro Prussian war or until some 'foreign' power stepped on German land.

In this context I noticed that the Netherlands seems to be on the brink of war with Hannover all the time as well.

I guess everyone on this forim appreciates the problems that this may cause...

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PhilThib
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Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:26 pm

Yes, this is very tricky. I'll try some solutions and see how we can work this out...
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Schattensand
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Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:16 pm

If one looks in the history 1866 Prussia was fighting all southern Germany, small battles so but many of them. There was not only this one Königgrätz-Sadowa decisive battle and besides that nothing else. One can really say that Austria and not Prussia was related very close to the dutchies.

Offworlder
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Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:48 pm

Schattensand wrote:If one looks in the history 1866 Prussia was fighting all southern Germany, small battles so but many of them. There was not only this one Königgrätz-Sadowa decisive battle and besides that nothing else. One can really say that Austria and not Prussia was related very close to the dutchies.


Basically Prussia took on the bulk of the minor states (even Hanover was on the opposite side and it inflicted the only defeat upon the Prussians at Langensalza).
I think that one way around it could be something like this at the begining:

Austria is allied to minor states
Prussia is not allied to Austria but is allied to the Minor States (with high diplomatic ratings though)
Come 1866, Prussia's dissolution of the Confederation should trigger Minors mobilisation against Prussia and in favour of Austria.

Also there must be a change regarding the Russians. In the Crimean War, the Austrians essentially abandoned their alliance with the Russians and therefore if there is an alliance, it should be dissolved. In 1866 the Austrians were essentially looking over their shoulders at the Russians because they were 'uninterested' in the conflict, but had a large Polish garrison.

Besides something should be done regarding the alliance thingy. Somehow allies should be prevented from going all over your territory in peacetime. In my Prussian game, the main Austrian army is lounging in Berlin, there is a detachment in Zanzibar (which I occupy) and have pockets of Austrian troops all over my territory.

theone1
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Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:17 am

I got the Northern German Confederation event fired in 1863. Is this normal?

Sepiche
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Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:06 pm

theone1 wrote:I got the Northern German Confederation event fired in 1863. Is this normal?

Yup.

Tazmaniacs
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Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:25 pm

Have these events being fixed yet?

I'm interested, as playing as France, Prussia still didn't declare war against me
(end of 1870 now). I did get the Elms depeche event, although no text appeared.

I think it really regretfull that so many events seems not to work, because a lot of the
game revolve around them. At least a small text could be fillen for them !

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Egg Bub
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Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:59 am

I'm considering starting a game up as Prussia and I'm interested to know whether the events for unification work yet? Also is there a guide anywhere as to how to achieve the unification? Thanks.

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loki100
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Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:39 am

they work fine for a human player, it seems the AI doesn't take the opportunities ... something similar happens with Italy. For Italy, I've done a small rework of the events so that the alternative chain will definitely produce an AI unification and having a look at the Prussia files is on the list of things to do (its just as someone else put it, 'there is nothing so expensive as free time'). I think the AI falls over around the Holstein/Schleswig event
AJE The Hero, The Traitor and The Barbarian
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Darthkommandant
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Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:41 pm

Northern German Confederation Fired for me in 1860. Probably because I only focused on the northern german states. I'm now focusing on the southern german states to create the second reich. My economy was solid as well but now I have so much money and capital I can splurge on vanity projects such as the Hochseeflotte.

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Jim-NC
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Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:57 pm

Welcome to the forums Darthkommandant. :wavey:
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Darthkommandant
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Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:26 pm

Glad to be here. Loved PON since I bought it during the paradox ageod marriage days.

steelwarrior77
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Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:19 pm

So anyway to speed up the unification process and then colonisation? Do like a historic start but to make things better than history also ;-)

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