Athens
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:48 am

tevans6220 wrote:My biggest concerns are:

1. That it will take many patches and a couple of years before PoN is patched to playability.

2. That Paradox won't allow the type of patching needed to allow PoN to fulfill it's potential.

3. That all patches come in the form of expansions or dlc the same as other Paradox titles.



IMHO there are less bugs than believed. there are some of course, but most "bugs" are tied to data balancing and lack of clarity of the GUI. I feel for example inflation is somewhat needed to run the economy and diplomatic data has to be adapted to help AIs to act smarter in diplomatic affairs.
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975

My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/

[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]

the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

Amadeus
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:58 am

#1 Fonts are too small and the red writing is unreadable
#2 Colonization is much too historical (I wanna change History a bit more and don't want to wait till a special date or tech)
#3 F4 UI, the screen could be much better

cato12
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:20 am

1 - the interface needs a serious rework/overhaul.

2 - from what ive read the diplomacy/military AI needs major improvements. the diplomacy problems i can understand due to this being a new feature in AGEOD games but the military issues are a bit more worrying.

allan_boa
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:26 am

Amadeus wrote:#1 Fonts are too small and the red writing is unreadable
#2 Colonization is much too historical (I wanna change History a bit more and don't want to wait till a special date or tech)
#3 F4 UI, the screen could be much better


Regarding #2 I think there is an option to deactiveate negative prestige points for a-historical colonization, which would answer your concern I guess. Check the options menu.

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Ashbery76
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:38 am

1.Turn times
2.Campaign map laggy
3.Two week turns is not suitible for this scale and makes full campaigns unlikely.

tevans6220
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:48 pm

Athens wrote:IMHO there are less bugs than believed. there are some of course, but most "bugs" are tied to data balancing and lack of clarity of the GUI. I feel for example inflation is somewhat needed to run the economy and diplomatic data has to be adapted to help AIs to act smarter in diplomatic affairs.


I disagree. I believe there may be more bugs than realized. After all no one, including the testers, has finished a GC yet. Nobody really knows what bugs lie ahead. IMHO that this is probably the worst Ageod developed title released. Of course now they're Paradox France. So the Phils don't even run the show anymore. Thus my concerns regarding Paradox.

allan_boa
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:51 am

Well, the time of end of turn process has become my main concern. It takes far too long. Something must be done by dev team ...

valinn
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:04 am

I've found a million problems with colonization. Decisions don't work for no good reason. Some areas can't be upgraded into protectorates for no good reason. I can't imagine this area of the game was tested much, probably because it happens later and it took too long to get there. But without it fixed, the game simply isn't much fun -- colonization is the main vehicle for expansion for a game of this era.

montgomeryjlion
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:28 am

valinn wrote:I've found a million problems with colonization. Decisions don't work for no good reason. Some areas can't be upgraded into protectorates for no good reason. I can't imagine this area of the game was tested much, probably because it happens later and it took too long to get there. But without it fixed, the game simply isn't much fun -- colonization is the main vehicle for expansion for a game of this era.


Actually, it does seem to work.
It's just that the info notes are very poor, the tooltips are wrong sometimes, and nothing is explained very well :)

montgomeryjlion
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:54 am

The main issues for me:
1. Economic. Too easy to industrialize too fast for all countries. Too easy to build railways. By 1855 I've got everything done, I'm awash with cash, awash with goods, no challenge.
2. Colonial. Confusing, poor tooltips. Far too fast. Should be severely restricted until 1870s. AI goes at decent pace. Players are able to go far too fast. Especially with all that money.
3. Diplomacy. Forge Casus Belli option totally broken. No easy way to make friends. Nowhere near enough alliance/Peace options. System doesn't remember what treaties there are. No Great Power guarantees. Unification chains for both Germany and Italy not working.

In the end, it's all about the money. If it's a challenge, players will have something to do, won't be able to colonize because they can't afford it. But diplomacy is 2nd.

It's a game with great potential, but it isn't there yet.

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hgilmer
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:28 pm

montgomeryjlion wrote:Actually, it does seem to work.
It's just that the info notes are very poor, the tooltips are wrong sometimes, and nothing is explained very well :)


Exactly. It's a crapshoot. Things work, but you have no clue when they will. I was able to get Formal Colony status in 4 areas in the U.S. West, but the only way to know it wa available was to zoom out as far as possible and then just check Formal Colony by selecting it and seeing what ended up green.

It would be nice if we got a message saying "XXXX territory (state, areas, whatever) is eligible for Formal Colony now".

Athens
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:34 pm

hgilmer wrote:Exactly. It's a crapshoot. Things work, but you have no clue when they will. I was able to get Formal Colony status in 4 areas in the U.S. West, but the only way to know it wa available was to zoom out as far as possible and then just check Formal Colony by selecting it and seeing what ended up green.

It would be nice if we got a message saying "XXXX territory (state, areas, whatever) is eligible for Formal Colony now".


Oh no no more messages :mdr:
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

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willgamer
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:04 pm

hgilmer wrote:Exactly. It's a crapshoot. Things work, but you have no clue when they will. I was able to get Formal Colony status in 4 areas in the U.S. West, but the only way to know it wa available was to zoom out as far as possible and then just check Formal Colony by selecting it and seeing what ended up green.

It would be nice if we got a message saying "XXXX territory (state, areas, whatever) is eligible for Formal Colony now".


Complex strategy games have always needed good strategy guides. It's rare that developers can provide these. On my library shelf is the 400 page, 9 appendices, almost 80 charts and tables, guide to Master of Orion (Emrich & Hughes). PON is more complex than MOO. :D

Effects in PoN are complicated further by the separation of cause and effect by time/turns in many cases. I believe the design intentionally allows some colonial decisions to fail due to changing circumstances after some delay. I also believe some colonial decisions fail dues to bugs. Needless to say, this is detrimental to the learning process as well. :bonk:

I actually like zooming the map out to see which areas are green and available for colonial decisions, but more info is always welcome too. :thumbsup:

Bottom line is that I expect guides to be slowly written over the next few years. Meanwhile the pioneers will just have to deal with life on the frontier. :neener:

montgomeryjlion
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:13 pm

There's some decent strategy guides already written and stickied over at the Paradox Forum.

tevans6220
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:54 pm

Strategy guides are great. But are also pointless if the game isn't finished before writing the guide. PoN seems to be a work in progress. A complete strategy guide at this point would be a waste of time since we don't know what will change. The guide in the Paradox forums is great for the game in it's current condition but how much of that will still be pertinent as the game changes. What I think is needed is a complete user manual that clearly explains everything and is kept up to date as the game changes.

montgomeryjlion
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:55 pm

Agreed.
Who's going to write/maintain it? :)

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Franciscus
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:25 pm

montgomeryjlion wrote:Agreed.
Who's going to write/maintain it? :)


Yes, we all know that argument - no time/resources to update the manual, too big a job, yabadababa... :)

But frankly, those arguments made sense in the "old age" of real manuals - ie, printed manuals. Now, when we just have a pdf or doc file as manual, please tell me what enormous time and resources would be needed for the devs to made a digital addendum with for instances, rules changes - like they already do (or should) with the so called patch notes ? ;)

Athens
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:26 pm

franciscus wrote:yes, we all know that argument - no time/resources to update the manual, too big a job, yabadababa... :)

but frankly, those arguments made sense in the "old age" of real manuals - ie, printed manuals. Now, when we just have a pdf or doc file as manual, please tell me what enormous time and resources would be needed for the devs to made a digital addendum with for instances, rules changes - like they already do (or should) with the so called patch notes ? ;)


+1
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

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Comtedemeighan
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:01 pm

Franciscus wrote:Yes, we all know that argument - no time/resources to update the manual, too big a job, yabadababa... :)

But frankly, those arguments made sense in the "old age" of real manuals - ie, printed manuals. Now, when we just have a pdf or doc file as manual, please tell me what enormous time and resources would be needed for the devs to made a digital addendum with for instances, rules changes - like they already do (or should) with the so called patch notes ? ;)


War in the Pacific Admirals Edition comes with an updated PDF with every patch that tells you what's new. They also have a very small development team. It's nothing fancy just black and white. I could see them doing the same thing with this game once they get over the initial shock of release fixes.
Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem - By the Sword We Seek Peace, But Peace Only Under Liberty
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"The army is the true nobility of our country."
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Pocus
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:23 pm

True, right now this is 110% on bugs and stability.
Image


Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

Amadeus
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Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:58 am

#1 Fonts are too small and the red writing is unreadable
#2 Colonization is much too historical (I wanna change History a bit more and don't want to wait till a special date or tech)
#3 F4 UI, the screen could be much better


allan_boa wrote:Regarding #2 I think there is an option to deactiveate negative prestige points for a-historical colonization, which would answer your concern I guess. Check the options menu.


Sorry the option doesn't work! :wacko:

Fusilier
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Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:08 am

Mine are superficial.
#1 Lack of name elements after construction (constructed elements do not appear to have names unlike elements existing at game start.
#2 Infantry regiment sizes - although as has already been discussed this appears to be for gameplay reasons, and, as elements can't be moved anyway I can live with it.
#3 Some of the map overlay colours seem a bit close. It might be good if the colours could be changed, but I could accept that this would be too great a task if each province had to be done individually - especially with all the overlays.

I also have to note that I have not played it for very long (though anticipate I will spend many years on it in the future) so my comments are superficial and in the case of #3 may be inaccurate.

TommH
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Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:10 pm

1 Turn times are WAY too long. its brutal especially if your trying to play one of the "minor majors" and are just trying to hit the turn advance button a few times.

2 The F4 interface is extremely difficult to understand or manipulate.

3 I want to zoom in a bit more. Right now the max zoom still crowded with very small print.

I really like the game so far but I've had to shelve it until the turn times get reduced to something I can stand.

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TheDoctorKing
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Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:34 pm

TommH wrote:1 Turn times are WAY too long. its brutal especially if your trying to play one of the "minor majors" and are just trying to hit the turn advance button a few times.


There is a console command that will allow you to process up to 9 turns at a time. So you can go off and do your shopping or cook dinner while the game is running and come back to find out what happened in those four and a half months. It is unclear if the AI is governing your country during those skipped turns, though.
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Depends on how you define victory.

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Gray_Lensman
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Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:28 pm

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caranorn
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Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:44 am

Gray_Lensman wrote:You're going to be waiting a long time then. For a single player game, PON is computing the AI moves of 7 additional countries. It's remarkable that it finishes in the time that it actually does. I suppose they (AGEod) could neuter the AI to absolute ineffectiveness, but most gamers want a game with a good AI to challenge them.



Actually ai moves more than just the 7 other major countries. At least some ai run minors are visibly active...

But I agree, considering the ammount of calculations happening in the background turn speed is acceptable. Some tweaking might still be necessary (not for me), but turn speed will never be instantaneous as some seem to be expecting...
Marc aka Caran...

TommH
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Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:25 am

I'd be fine with 97 seconds for a AI turn, but mine are considerably longer. While my machine is not that modern it is a dual core Pentium 2.00ghz which exceeds the game requirements. My turns are running in the 4-6 minute range. That for me is too long.

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Dunhill_BKK
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Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:31 am

My biggest concern so far is that the low price has attracted some riff-raff to the forums.

Aedan
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Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:45 am

1.Turn times (and tne windows game mode don't run)
2.CTD
3.Two week turns is not suitible for this scale and makes full campaigns unlikely. 1680 turns !!! You're crazy! 1 turn by 2 monts or one month. 840 turn or 420 turn is well.

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Sean E
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Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:01 am

The major concern is given the slow speed of the engine that not many (if any) will ever finish a GC.

Monthly turns, or even more, would have been better for a game of this scale on this engine. I think this was a major design error on the part of Ageod.

I fear after the initial hype has worn off interest in PON will slowly fade.

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