Bronxuk wrote:In a game of this type i dont believe realism is all that important mcduff, realisms fine for a first person shooter but for an empire game it can bog down the game play making it over complicated, i dont know if you've played Imperialism but theres nothing in that game i would say is realistic and yet it is still after 10 years a timeless classic to me and many others, i can do without realism for a good addictive game and in a game of this type how far do you go with your realism, do you allow for characters like Hitler and Stalin, revolutions annexing your country and killing off your monachy.This kind of realism would just give me a headache and add nothing to the game for me.
I'm actually playing to Medieval Total War, which is not very realist but still amusing
What I meant was as someone asked for the impossibility for the player to conquer the world, I feared that artificial limitations were added in VGN like in Europa or Vicky, allowing the player to annex only 2 or 3 provinces at a time even after a total victory... that's what I find not realist.
So my point is: if I manage to totally defeat my oponent, I would like to have the ability to annex large territories. BUT, if other countries do not react (like in the games mentioned before), it would be far too easy to conquer the world: that's why I asked for a realist limitation by making other countries ally against me untill I'm defeated.
arsan wrote:Hi!
I agree that realism and historical details does not mean by it self that a game is good. Fun, playability and strategic choices are as important.
And i don't have anything against "generic" or "open" strategy games like Imperialism or Civilization. I enjoy that kind of games a lot also.
I was only stating that, judging by previous AGEOD designs and all that the developers had said about VGN here, this game is not going to be like this "generic" strategy games.
High historic fidelity and flavor and realism/plausibility are things very valued by the developers and by most of the gamers around here. And of course, lets hopeAGEOD manage to mix all this with fun, playability and strategic possibilities... as they have made with the previous games.
Regards!
I totally agree with that
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anarchyintheuk
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McDuff wrote:I'm actually playing to Medieval Total War, which is not very realist but still amusing
So my point is: if I manage to totally defeat my oponent, I would like to have the ability to annex large territories. BUT, if other countries do not react (like in the games mentioned before), it would be far too easy to conquer the world: that's why I asked for a realist limitation by making other countries ally against me untill I'm defeated.
That would certainly be the MTW and MTW2 method.
arsan wrote:Hi!
I agree that realism and historical details does not mean by it self that a game is good. Fun, playability and strategic choices are as important.
And i don't have anything against "generic" or "open" strategy games like Imperialism or Civilization. I enjoy that kind of games a lot also.
I was only stating that, judging by previous AGEOD designs and all that the developers had said about VGN here, this game is not going to be like this "generic" strategy games.
High historic fidelity and flavor and realism/plausibility are things very valued by the developers and by most of the gamers around here. And of course, lets hope
Regards!
I could not agree more. Historic fidelity, color, flavor, realism + fun, playability, and strategic depth is the Ageod formula.
All that is needed is a combat reporting system that has some on screen excitement, such as the one in Gary Grigsby's War Between the States.
And I say this as one who has played and enjoyed Imperialism 1 and 2.
Don't know if the following post will be of any relevance, but still...
I was delighted to know there will be 8 playable nations in VoN.
I am sure, each of these 'major powers' will offer a unique and varying gameplay.
On the same time i would like to share my humble observations with the community regarding the selection of the 'G8' of the XIX century.
To be short, my point is simple - why not including China to be the 9th playable nation? My reasons are following.
1. Certainly, the Chinese Empire was in decline since
late XVIII century, but due to its size, for the time being it still remained an important entity in the world. Politically may be not, but economically - very possible.
China was No 1 in terms of popultion for the last two millenniums and by 1850 controlled the landmass second only to British Empire (or Russia).
The country was an important market too due to its immense population and size. So, in terms of territory and population China always was one of great powers.
2. Now about political aspect. Politically Chinese Empire wasn’t insignificant either. By the year 1850 the country meant much more for world affairs (regarding its national potential and its importance to the western world) than Japan, substantially less considerable both in economic might, manpower, and territory. To compare Japan and China in 1850 with David and Goliath won’t make a mistake. I suppose, in 1850 both countries had the same level of technological development. Only after 1867 the balance gradually began to shift to the Japanese.
So if Japan - being less powerful - is included in 1850, why not China?
3. Gameplay issues. The whole XIX century saw a steady decline of Imperial China and in early XX century the dynasty was nothing more than a shadow of its former glory. But imagine how many events you could include to simulate possible choises at the crossroads - 2nd Opium war and English-French intervention in 1856-1860, uneasy relations with Russia, Empress Dowager Cixi reign, huge Taiping rebellion of mid-XIX century which almost toppled Qing government, self-strengthening policy of late XIX century, Sino-French war of 1884-1885, war between China and Japan of 1894-1895, an unsuccessful 1898 reform attempt, boxer rebellion of 1899-1900, and at last revolution of 1911, establishment of the Republic of China followed by warlord era. Only half of these events if included will provide a fascinating gameplay allowing the player to guide the country through the turbulent epoch to the possible glory.
So... Don’t deprive us of the opportunity to play as China and having fun to battle western agressors with its brave but obsolete army. Enabling it as a playable nation will add more flavor to the game, make the 'G8 club' more diverse (not to count Japan, it consists only of western powers) and - which is quite important - will encourage numerous Chinese fans to buy VoN.
And yes, I am not Chinese.
I was delighted to know there will be 8 playable nations in VoN.
I am sure, each of these 'major powers' will offer a unique and varying gameplay.
On the same time i would like to share my humble observations with the community regarding the selection of the 'G8' of the XIX century.
To be short, my point is simple - why not including China to be the 9th playable nation? My reasons are following.
1. Certainly, the Chinese Empire was in decline since
late XVIII century, but due to its size, for the time being it still remained an important entity in the world. Politically may be not, but economically - very possible.
China was No 1 in terms of popultion for the last two millenniums and by 1850 controlled the landmass second only to British Empire (or Russia).
The country was an important market too due to its immense population and size. So, in terms of territory and population China always was one of great powers.
2. Now about political aspect. Politically Chinese Empire wasn’t insignificant either. By the year 1850 the country meant much more for world affairs (regarding its national potential and its importance to the western world) than Japan, substantially less considerable both in economic might, manpower, and territory. To compare Japan and China in 1850 with David and Goliath won’t make a mistake. I suppose, in 1850 both countries had the same level of technological development. Only after 1867 the balance gradually began to shift to the Japanese.
So if Japan - being less powerful - is included in 1850, why not China?
3. Gameplay issues. The whole XIX century saw a steady decline of Imperial China and in early XX century the dynasty was nothing more than a shadow of its former glory. But imagine how many events you could include to simulate possible choises at the crossroads - 2nd Opium war and English-French intervention in 1856-1860, uneasy relations with Russia, Empress Dowager Cixi reign, huge Taiping rebellion of mid-XIX century which almost toppled Qing government, self-strengthening policy of late XIX century, Sino-French war of 1884-1885, war between China and Japan of 1894-1895, an unsuccessful 1898 reform attempt, boxer rebellion of 1899-1900, and at last revolution of 1911, establishment of the Republic of China followed by warlord era. Only half of these events if included will provide a fascinating gameplay allowing the player to guide the country through the turbulent epoch to the possible glory.
So... Don’t deprive us of the opportunity to play as China and having fun to battle western agressors with its brave but obsolete army. Enabling it as a playable nation will add more flavor to the game, make the 'G8 club' more diverse (not to count Japan, it consists only of western powers) and - which is quite important - will encourage numerous Chinese fans to buy VoN.
And yes, I am not Chinese.
It could be possible to play as China, although I believe the "Chinese" player would lose a lot of the gameplay fun (no industrialization, no colonization, no world maritime trade, no technoloigical research / progress, )...we would need to tweak a lot of things...
But this is still feasible ... if someone wants to do the work that lies behind this... 
But this is still feasible
... if someone wants to do the work that lies behind this... 
Well, if the Chinese gameplay is historical, this should not be a "can I conquer the world" style of gameplay either... So I'm unsure, as Philippe, that you would not die from boredom playing the Chinese. Now if you want to mod the game to be able to "paint the world in your color", like in some others games, then no problem, but this won't be official 
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
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Martial-law
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Dear Philippe,
I remember that you mentioned in an earlier that this game would be released by the end of 2008. Its August now and there are no signs of any release information. I am impatient for this game and I would request you to provide some feedback about it. Should we pin our hopes for the release of this game in 2008 or you intend to release it in 2009? Please confirm.
I remember that you mentioned in an earlier that this game would be released by the end of 2008. Its August now and there are no signs of any release information. I am impatient for this game and I would request you to provide some feedback about it. Should we pin our hopes for the release of this game in 2008 or you intend to release it in 2009? Please confirm.
leure:
In 2009 would you say it be out around april or may, or do you mean late 2009 just curiouse I wont be able to play it any way until i get a laptop after graduating from high school this year but i'll be going crazy while i wait to get the laptop so i can play what looks like another grand game that you are creating.
Quote General Lee Gettysburg movie,
"Do you see, General, there is the great trap, to be a good soldier you must love the army, to be a good commander you must be ready to order the death of the thing you love. We don't fear our death. But if this war goes on and on and the men die and the price gets ever high. We are prepared to lose some of us, but we are never prepared to lose all of us. We are adrift here in a sea of blood and I want it to end. I want this to be the final battle".
"Do you see, General, there is the great trap, to be a good soldier you must love the army, to be a good commander you must be ready to order the death of the thing you love. We don't fear our death. But if this war goes on and on and the men die and the price gets ever high. We are prepared to lose some of us, but we are never prepared to lose all of us. We are adrift here in a sea of blood and I want it to end. I want this to be the final battle".
Philippe is going away for the Leipzig Game Convention, so in case he miss your reply, write him directly at contact@ageod.com.
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
Pocus wrote:Philippe is going away for the Leipzig Game Convention, so in case he miss your reply, write him directly at contact@ageod.com.
I already sent a pm to him about this, NCP portraits and other things
If besides, I write an e-mail to that address, will he consider it harassment?
I asked him the address to send the portraits, is this then?
contact@ageod.com
Yes this is fine. Do not use support@ageod.com for anything but technical (installation etc.) problem.
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
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Martial-law
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Until recently I had high hopes on Paradox, that they would be releasing a Victoria 2 but Paradox has completely dashed our hopes. Paradox has changed a lot since a couple of years. Now they leave their fanbase out in the cold and only make games which they are sure they would make loads of money. Now I am with you and your project Vainglory of nations and I hope that by spring next year you would not let me and other fans of this era down. I would be the first to buy Vainglory of nations. If I am required I would give many valuable information and suggestion for this game. Meanwhile I would urge you to think about including the population system on the similar lines as that of Paradox's Victoria. Include cultural, religious, political figures of populations of each province. Give this point some consideration as its also the pop model which makes people fan of this game. Also include deep diplomatic, infranstructure, research feature as this game should not be about an all out war but should be nation building game.
Hi Martial-law, always nice to see familiar faces
I just had to comment this; the POP system is just about the most controversial component of Victoria; there are just as many who like Victoria in spite of it as there are people who like Victrola because of it
Martial-law wrote:Give this point some consideration as its also the pop model which makes people fan of this game.
I just had to comment this; the POP system is just about the most controversial component of Victoria; there are just as many who like Victoria in spite of it as there are people who like Victrola because of it
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Gray_Lensman
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Gray_Lensman wrote:Victoria's "Pop" system is one of the reasons I actually shelved the game from my collection. I found it overwhelmingly burdensome as far as micormanagement was concerned and I certainly hope AGEod doesn't make the same mistake.
I totally agree. Hopefully AGEOD can find a way to make it realistic and playable.
Many games try to deliver too much and fail in both department
Can someone explain how will multi ethic countries be simulated (especially A-H, Russia + nations with colonial property). Can we expect riots and national "awareness" at some point of the game ?
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Martial-law
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Glad to see you here Rafiki. About the population system I think that if a few people dont like it is the fact that the implementation of the pop system in Victoria is basically very complicated. By this I mean its very difficult to manage it in Victoria which was first to implement the pop system in its games, so the interface was quite complicated. I think if they had created a Victoria 2 they must have made the pop sytem very easier to manage as a Victoria 2 would have been an improvement over Victoria 1. Anyway what I have to do with Paradox now. Dont want to play EUs and HOIs all the times! I think that if the pop system is implemented in VON with improvements like making it easier to manage, it would be a huge plus point for VON. Also can wait to link my provinces through railway lines even in very difficult terrains to improve immigration.
About the population system I think that if a few people dont like it is the fact that the implementation of the pop system in Victoria is basically very complicated. By this I mean its very difficult to manage it in Victoria which was first to implement the pop system in its games, so the interface was quite complicated. I think if they had created a Victoria 2 they must have made the pop sytem very easier to manage as a Victoria 2 would have been an improvement over Victoria 1. Anyway what I have to do with Paradox now. Dont want to play EUs and HOIs all the times! I think that if the pop system is implemented in VON with improvements like making it easier to manage, it would be a huge plus point for VON. Also can wait to link my provinces through railway lines even in very difficult terrains to improve immigration. Carnium wrote:I totally agree. Hopefully AGEOD can find a way to make it realistic and playable.
Many games try to deliver too much and fail in both department
Can someone explain how will multi ethic countries be simulated (especially A-H, Russia + nations with colonial property). Can we expect riots and national "awareness" at some point of the game ?
This is not all fixed, so for now we are mostly concentrated on having various units pool recruitment, depending of the ethnics you have. But yes, revolts or national awareness can be expected in some cases.
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
Pocus wrote:This is not all fixed, so for now we are mostly concentrated on having various units pool recruitment, depending of the ethnics you have. But yes, revolts or national awareness can be expected in some cases.
Thanks for reply Pocus.
Would it be possible for certain units/lands to revolt because of the national awareness ?
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Generalisimo
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Martial-law wrote:Glad to see you here Rafiki.
It is not only complicated... it is also very artificial in many cases... specially the ammount of control that gives to the player.
And let's not talk about the firsts "incarnations" of the game...
"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."
Napoleon Bonaparte
BOA-AAR: ¡Abajo el imperialismo Británico! (en español)
AGEOD Facebook Fanpage - news & screenshots about the upcoming games!
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BOA-AAR: ¡Abajo el imperialismo Británico! (en español)
AGEOD Facebook Fanpage - news & screenshots about the upcoming games!
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