observations patch "M" RC

[yellow ribbon]

*has to be filled with contents yet*



Edit:


well lads, feel free to revive the inquisition, i read Candide, i dont bother...

but i understand the point and dont give u a very embarrassing answer regarding it....

however, i do have the new patch running for three hours now, in the background at work and as i expected in the last night, even the added costs are NOT enough to fix it...
so be sure, there will be more posting as soon i can confirm my observation with re-running the game

Rafiki, as a wise man u would have been able to spare the comment and converge the thread with the one for patch "J", adding your ye-be-warned-comment had the same effect, than my will-be-continued entry

do u want your gym socks back? *i am jesting*

stop fooling around or i start for every bug a new thread

BTW:

thanks to the team for the included hotfix regarding games stability, i am able to use older scenario saves again.
something no one ever confirmed here, but at Paradox

[AndrewKurtz]

*has to be filled with content yet*

Best post ever!

[Rafiki]

Kinda counter-productive, though, for those who look for new postings via the "New Posts"-link, and won't see chnges to existing posts

[PhilThib]

...yup indeed...but Andrew's post gave me a good start today

[yellow ribbon]

ok, lets start to try to act like adults, as much as possible, first serious post:


i can only speak for the first year (new started GC with USA, out of box, plus patch 1.01, plus patch 1.01 M)...

you literally eliminated any militancy in my game, due to kind of inflation of social reforms.
it would even not be necessary to sell my people goods to keep them calm

i would have figured it proper enough with the situation in patch "Lima" plus the working martial-law-threshold.
then i had never more than 5%, average between 2 and 3%

the cost of moral for "send troops" should be higher, in case of covered demand the moral loss is compensated to fast.

i will start over with the first 12 months now, to be able compare the economic situation.
knowing the trade system and all whereabouts of certain resources, i do manage to gain at least 500 disposal PC within few turns, like in the patches before.

Edit:

this 500 disposal PC is to be understand in a situation when excise and corporate taxes and tariffs are set to total limit, cash is streaming turn based in.

march 1850, little about 600 for maintenance cost, total PC at the beginning of the next turn about 1100/1200.
exporting few, but raws

EDIT no.3:

i do have to confirm it, after 18 months of gameplay i am self-sustaining with the economy of USA even with the new changes.
i do have over 900-1000 PC every turn for investment, nearly without exporting.

6 tea, 6 sugar, 22 coffee, 6 rice, 6 dyes, 6 silk is all what i import.
since demand of goods are compounded in sums of groups of goods, i could even get rid of most of that imports

before research is completed, i can just invest in weapon industry, army, or foreign investment.
getting probably up to 3000 disposal PC again.
to cover this kind of investment will approximately need only 18 further months and in 1855 i would be supreme power again.

i could live with it, if i would know that there is the panic of 1857, if Sir Garnet and Generalisimo do remember what i mean

PS:

pic shows only the fact that reforms are now bundled to F1 ledger, no one should miss them

SECOND EDIT:

regarding reforms, using improving education triggers the message that it would be newly available in F1 instead of that it was accepted by congress

the graphic bug i experienced in "L" exist again, but this time with the sent troop icon.

i used the "education reform" and that lead to a second icon for "sent troops" which is empty/has no popup information

[yellow ribbon]

@ Pocus

I just experienced the very problem with the military control this time in the province of Flathead /at the Canadian border.

rebels uprise, province gone gray.

i sent in light cavalry, but after three turns i gained still no ground.

i restored three turns by POS1 and just waited instead of exhausting my military unit any longer.
now few turns later, again rebels are gone without any further action, province turned to original owners MC.

*************

Edit:

structures cost are either not calculated right, or not announced right.

even if i add the percentages for terrain and take in mind some rounding effect, values do not fit.
this effect is getting larger as more structures you build of one type.

same is true if i build a structure, see that total cost will lead to inflation (too few PC after all costs are subtracted) and delete the site in the same turn.

game is adding back not the (annouced cost plus variable x) but some other values, what does appear to be correlated to the new accumulating building costs system.
maybe a glitch therein...

[Pocus]

People may differ with you on militancy, so as with economy, we have to be prudent, one bird song don't make spring
For example on militancy, the costs of enacting reforms are also higher, plus you get spike when there are troubles, so for a nation or player (or AI) with a so-so economy, fighting militancy won't be as easy as for you.

As for 'automated martial law', it really only trigger at very high level in non authoritarian countries, something like 30, so I don't think it is a too easy tool, without enough penalty.

For MC, you are saying that there was no enemy troops and still you did not got back any MC? Your MC can only be recovered thanks to the patrol rating of your troops, perhaps you did not have enough.

For structures cost, there is a glitch yes, a shift of one structure (the one you are building)... this is fixed for patch N.

[yellow ribbon]

"People may differ with you on militancy, so as with economy, we have to be prudent, one bird song don't make spring
For example on militancy, the costs of enacting reforms are also higher, plus you get spike when there are troubles, so for a nation or player (or AI) with a so-so economy, fighting militancy won't be as easy as for you."

certainly me lad, thats why i am giving the information which nation i play and express it as IN MY GAME

someone who would not even know the context, is going to stand in front of uprises or strikes, and learn it the hard way.

(obviously i am not playing OE or SP)

but a lil play of numbers here...

US had an economic rank of about 7 at the very moment i wrote it

(later in game 5, i still havent invested in plantations yet, nor in ammo / supplies, no shipbuilding and no second californian goldrush event, foreign investment yet neither but two mines in Mexico, no additional RR build)

two taxes and tariff as mentioned set to the upper limit (does it only effect the happiness or does it effect militancy too, seriously i dont remember so help me out here)

without using conversion of goods, and even in state of deflation.

i earn over 240 state money per turn, mainly from plenty of luxury goods.

"education reform" needs only 500 money and gives an effect of minus 3%

political reforms cost in general 200 and giving effect based on populations class distribution

techs are balancing most of the later effects of lowered education

i do need, in a country which is liberal and thus allowing more militancy than others, more some EIGHT months before a reform is worth to be taken into account.

it means IN MY case, i allow at least 5% militancy what needs at least 8 months to be given with mentioned circumstances.

one new reform, one political reform is in MY case more than enough...

some days ago i cut into this topic, that in average game (i tried in in different games, different nations) a yearly increase of 5-8% is given as long education is higher than 60%

the problem of mounting numbers of militancy was solved in "patch L" already, now i dont even have any militancy if i dont want, but while playing the non-ready-nations-yet

you just gave us at least 10% decrease yearly, for most nations but OE and SP.

even in an old save from Belgium i can earn enough money with trade and high taxes.
***********************

for the rebel situation... NOPE, this time i wanted to be sure and used Cavalry.
is there any unit with higher land detection?

if this should happen again i will send you a save immediately and without warning

**********

"so I don't think it is a too easy tool, without enough penalty."

yeap, i do know the thresholds, but i can loose more moral points by rejected political reforms, than due to probably killed civilians, and if it would only be twenty?

however, actually the claim of not enough penalty was regarding to the loss of national moral for SEND TROOPS ONLY, not to martial law.
i consider the martial law as what it is implemented, a upper ceiling to prevent rates of 50, 60, 70% of militancy happening again.

so, as i meant it in the first place, martial law additional to political reforms PLUS two reforms from patch L would have been enough.

if you find time, just google the Great Railroad Strike of 1877...

developing in only 45 days, barely rates of 20 dead in on place then in others, but millions of economical damage and, and THATS MY POINT:

leading to many more strikes and setting foundations of organized mass strike and early labor unions !!!

once a high level of militancy is reached, that martial law OR sent troops would make sense (even if one would consider France and Germany in the 1830s and 1840s), harm to the state of nation would be higher than1 moral point

well, as always, i dont look for discussion, who wants to do that, does it, some of your team did, in other places than public threads.
thats why i called it "OBSERVATIONS", not "BUG! - fix it, damn you"

for the rest, you can just ignore me, as long no one is going to ban me

but, fine that my eye for numbers still works like at the university some years ago, and good to know that this is only a "jumping" mechanism leading to the structures costs ouet:

[yellow ribbon]

PS:

two questions to the devs regarding MC over tribes territory in north america.

have you changed it in "patch M" or was there something to fix...

i mean, now, as soon CP is high enough i do have also MC over provinces (blue in the MC filter).
not to mention the land bridge of MC in the northwest... i havent seen a constant corridor of MC reaching from Kansas to San Francisco since one of the first patches.
you changed it lately?

second question, there are two provinces at the canadian frontier which do not have any status, i mean, no entry to be a protectorate.
same i have seen in Utah i believe for one province, but normally for Utah it was never a problem after declaration of colony.

is it WAD? thx!

********

EDIT:

there is still the glitch that commercial agreement can be offered in F9 after a Commercial agreement was just agree upon

EDIT no. 2:

minor graphic bug.

if i delete a colonial action the helmet symbol will not be deleted either until i play a new colonial action in the area.

message is there that it is deleted, structure added to pool again, but helmet and pop up information remain.

EDIT no.3:

you probably just didnt manage it in time, but as a memo, the sewer problem is still there, i can use the card nearly everywhere

EDIT no.4:

as mentioned for patch Lima, the anchorage is shown as mixture of fort and anchorage at land.
some forts are not shown in the structure list and a harbor appearing instead.

upgrading an anchorage to an harbor even leads to loosing all indication that there was anything build.
once the anchorage is upgraded, it disappeared from the structures list, while the pop up on the map shows me a harbor with sea area x and x as exitpoints of it...

[Baris]

Playing as Ottomans there is a colonial desicion to build roads in Aleppo, latakia etc.. in Syria. They have all tracks as well as Ottomans except Constantinople. Sultan will be very jealous ! .

In F1 screen religion is "intolerant" for Ottomans. There were some "Tanzimat reforms" started at early date. Bu later dates through the end of 19th century it become intolerant indeed. Bu I think it can be "Tolerant" in that time frame.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanzimat


"Tanzimat included the policy of Ottomanism, which was meant to unite all of the different peoples living in Ottoman territories, "Muslim and non-Muslim, Turkish and Greek, Armenian and Jewish, Kurd and Arab"

"Overall, Tanzimat reforms had far-reaching effects. Those educated in the schools established during the Tanzimat period included Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and other progressive leaders and thinkers of the Republic of Turkey and of many other former Ottoman states in the Balkans, the Middle East and North Africa"
This is crucial for late game Ottomans.

[Cohnman5]

I am playing a s France in mid 1853 and there is no longer a coal mine option. This is terrible. There must be other sources of coal--be it in North Africa or in America or in Canada and now, the games is running out of coal with some very dire consequences. Please help!

[PhilThib]

Coal was always short in France...you need to purchase coal from abroad (try Belgium, they have a lot)...your pool of mine will increase with time, and also technology will allow your existing mines to produce more in the future...don't forget to put railroad in every coal mine region

[yellow ribbon]

hum... Phil, i dont like to spoil the idea, but as i mentioned already for patch "L" and to Fernando, the new behavior of the AI regarding trades and stockpiles, leads to some side effects.

the problem with flood of agricultural products was solved on the cost of an kind of new issue, a flood of industrial goods.

I am in 1855, (new GC started with MIKE, playing US again)



good effect:

whole world is only offering two tropical fruits, meanwhile i produce at least 15 (including Hawaii and Samoa)



bad side effect:

world is offering over thousand units of steel (even Brazil, Japan...), Germany and France offering twice as much as UK...

also over 250 mechanical parts...

meanwhile whole world is only offering 22 (in words TWENTY-TWO) units of coal...



logical solution:

shut down heavy industry, unless it is your major export good



************

EDIT:

...my old tune about not riding dead horses (down with prices / up with structure cost):

my younger brother started a new GC with RUSSIA, he just managed to trigger a economic crisis which spread obviously to all trade partners within two turns...

now, Russians have to develop the economy yet, lacking the mfg for a fast build up of economy. you have to wait to gather enough resources, do you, thereby cash is idle, waiting for action?

however, in end 1853 he had that much cash in stock, that the new crisis system triggered.... you will know better than me where the threshold is set before it triggers.

however, interesting to jump from 5% deflation (which i believe does not work) to 15% inflation... unluckily even the russian economy can deal with this.

if you waste a minute for my minds last days in emails, just think about impact on TRADE AND DOMESTIC ACTIVITY / DEMAND and not always structure cost

EDIT 2:

hum, someone is us a nose ahead... Paradox forum, or: late 1851 and crisis event has triggered allready

[LooksLikeRain]

There seem to be a couple of things missing from your economic system that are causing problems.

1) National Market demand should vary with the price of a good. Right now, if you see the message about a price change, that doesn't do anything to change the balance of your goods in your economy. What should happen is every time you see the price of something like textiles or fish change, there should be a change in the national market demand.

The effect should be that if a good gets too plentiful on the world markets, then the price falls. The availability of the good at a cheaper price should then create more demand, which should then help to suck up all that extra steel in the world. As a player, a lower price of steel should mean you need more steel to satisfy your national market, which means you either import more or export less steel to the world market, which should help to stabilize the stockpile and the price.

2) Inflation needs to be tied to levels of State Money and Private Capital. At least a worldwide inflation rate based on overall levels of these two sources of people buying stuff. And maybe a local and different national inflation rate based on both this worldwide rate and the national accumulations of state money and private capital.

Right now, inflation seems to work exactly backwards. When there is too much private capital, its very easy to avoid going negative and thus raising the inflation rate. And at least in the early game years I've played, the other events then drive the inflation rate down to zero.

Inflation should work just the opposite. When the world or nation is flooded with private capital and/or state money, that's when inflation should rise. When there's too much money for too few goods to buy in an economy, inflation goes up, not down.

That might go aways towards solving the problem of too much capital by virtue of the fact that simply everything costs more when that's the case.

3) Although, if it doesn't, another mechanism you could use to cure that is to apply wastage rates to national stockpiles of either state money or private capital. To me, its human nature that whenever everyone is flush with money, more gets spent on wasteful projects, and there's more con-men and courtiers scheming to get more of that money coming that way. Applying a wastage rate to stockpiles of money and capital would be a way of simulating this and thus helping to keep such stockpiles from growing too large.

Things like market demand changing with price and inflation working in the right direction would also tend to put the causes of business cycles into the simulation. Markets the go bear or bull with oversupply and undersupply or cycles of inflation and deflation around booms and busts in the business cycle both seem to be a part of the economic history of the period as well as causes for the political discontent and movements of the period.

[yellow ribbon]

the same graphic bug and bug for the message of the accepted refom as i described it above is also true for the reform of "social protection"

wrong message: instead of accepted, you get an available message

graphic bug: you get another icon for "send the troops" instantly, which has no popup information

(Yeah, Pocus, i did it, i finally even used a second of the new reforms within a year )

EDIT:

same is true for sent the troops reform, text will be shown as reform is now available, instead of accepted

[Cohnman5]

Coal was always short in France...you need to purchase coal from abroad (try Belgium, they have a lot)...your pool of mine will increase with time, and also technology will allow your existing mines to produce more in the future...don't forget to put railroad in every coal mine region

Thanks for the great advice. I can now build level 2 coal mines and am railroading every coal mine, but shouldn't England/Wales and America be selling a ton of coal? Perhaps, this can be fixed in the next patch.

[yellow ribbon]

once more the "new economic crisis" topic:

in a game i kept on with...

first crisis in late December 1853 by Russia (save from my brother),

moral recovered within few turns until march 1854. economic sunrise fired a few times in the mid of a global crisis

crisis ended in August 1854 and most countries got a message they recovered too

AI controlled countries are still damned to high inflation in mid 1855, they do nothing to recover / to lower it, or just do it far too slow

US used all measures and still has 8 % only from economic crisis

*******

now, its December 1855 and he next country is triggering an economic crisis, UK this time...

playing US, after advanced research is done, you can build only further 14 shops for ammo, military gear and weapons.

and also 29 cotton fields...

economic rank is 1

commerce rank is 2

prestige is minus 1500 compared to UK

all foreign investment in sugar, silk, coffee, tropical fruits, dyes... is done as far relations allow it.

exports are low, imports moderate (wood, tea...)

every turn i get 3000 additional PC, corp. tax at max, tariff at max, excise tax 25% (at the moment, just to keep up building structures and reduce the PC thereby every turn below 2000)

from my point of view, you created a vicious circle...

[Sir Garnet]

1. A big picture point: essential to civilization is the unceasing process of maintenance on every level, and in the game the trick is to reflect this in a way that creates a positive response and feel rather than annoyance (the same issue applies with attrition). Early maintenance preserves efficiency, deferred maintenance accumulates and things eventually fall apart or pass beyond repair. Only savings and investment build the economy, and few societies nowadays sustain 1% capital formation per month, and I suspect few ever did 2% or more (the Japanese were once in that ballpark). Population is also an issue - I'd talk about per capita numbers to start.

So 1% economic growth per capita each turn (on average) should be a practical limit, a stretch, not easily achieved and for some economies not feasible at all. Some of the rest goes to maintenance of industry and the infrastructure, most to consumption, including long-term assets such as improvements to land and housing and personal property and to maintenance of these assets, whether thatched barns and hovels or brick and steel townhomes and opera houses - things that directly make people healthy and content and help add to the population.

The limit can't be just a decapitation of private capital, but implemented organically in the flow of the game and with a benefit to the country and its people that the player can observe and feel good about. So, to give an example, seeing a gross +500 of which 60% goes to maintain and improve the lives of the people is more welcome to players as a sign of progress than seeing just the net +200.

This is a conceptual background for some specific suggestions I made previously, so I won't offer specifics here.


2. Did you find somewhere in the UI that tells you that you are in an economic crisis? E.g., changefaction to take a look at what a country is doing - where do you look?


3. How do you think the AI countries are doing with the current economic adjustments in (m)? Players can always engineer to optimize a situation, so I think the first question is whether the AI can work within the system, the second one about the results being too fast or too skewed.

[yellow ribbon]

Hello Sir Garnet,

well, for point 1. we really dont have to talk much.

i have shown you that economic crisis in that time happened as often as nowadays, about all half a dozen years. there were plenty enough reasons for it, mostly not related to inflation, neither leading to inflation!

dont compare it to much to nowadays problems. remember that there was a deflation in most of the country, while over a 40% inflation during the californian goldrush for instance

no problem with that.

aside of that, we are talking about an age, were 800% (8-hundred per cent) growth rate in some business activity was given.
I explained the same to generalisimo as i did to you, with the same links.


quote:

"For example, between 1865 and 1898, the output of wheat increased by 256%, corn by 222%, coal by 800% and miles of railway track by 567%.[2]"

this is represented in the game very well, but destroyed for the lack of all functions of price and money but one.
the system is common in games which run 5-10 year scenarios and so on, but cannot hold in a game with that scale and development curve.

this is the new mother of all strategy games, raped by use-military-for-every-problem-players and the economic system itself


due to the not working functions of price and money, due to this completely artificial inflation system (circling around not having any function of money and prices but the "gimme"-one) we have all this nasty side effects.

As long prices are globally fixed, they will stay. absolute minimum is a difference between import and export prices, everything else not feasible yet or luxury

demand quasi-linear, as prices are, thus there is no inflation, no deflation, but only excess burdens for many structures and price jumps in case of flooded good markets as a consequence of no demand or economic shocks.

they had a good idea with the inflation, but it was implemented without any economic reason for what inflation is (reason has to be understand as the thing related to thinking logical, not as the one for debating).

the crisis system is build on this artificial inflation on a global scale and here the system kills itself.

thresholds for average capital stock are set far to low and must have been set for 5 year periods (thus 14-15 different thresholds related to outputs average/GDP average of average number of possible structures and techs)

and not on a single global ceiling, inflation must be killed out of the system for it does not work at all in the game but on structures costs

AND:

a world crises would NOT lead to quasi-linear (20%) higher inflation (here especially protectionism countries like US, played by AI) that time, to import inflation was much more difficult that time, but in case of the crisis of speculation regarding foreign railroads (fast economic growth, extended money base related to more business activity, time gaps of demand, speculation, failure, inflation DUE TO broken-in economic activity base [money could be picked up from the market that easy neither]).
***********
EDIT: in this example we would have DEFLATION in the country with the railroads (insolvencies and capital flight, but yet high level of activity) and inflation in the investors country (speculation bubble must be compensated, before it, the capital shift to foreign markets! then panic would lead to capital withdraw and thus to high level of liquid capital / inflation in the investors country mostly addressing investment goods)

**************


but to DEFLATION, LIMITED international TRADE VOLUME, LIMITED DOMESTIC SELLS... but again, for all that the functions of money and price lack totally to simulate it.
no problem with the idea of problems to get investors and increase structures costs, but inflation, in this kind of use spoils it more than... *i stop or i start cussing and swearing*

"2. Did you find somewhere in the UI that tells you that you are in an economic crisis? E.g., changefaction to take a look at what a country is doing - where do you look?"

yeah, you get messages, pictures are attached. i re-runed a couple of turns to see how it looks like from the perspective of other countries and kept on playing US then

"3. How do you think the AI countries are doing with the current economic adjustments in (m)? Players can always engineer to optimize a situation, so I think the first question is whether the AI can work within the system, the second one about the results being too fast or too skewed."

Nay, they keep on as always and use the full scale of subvention for goods, as soon there is a message, the crisis in the original land would be over, some nations get a message it would be over for them too... educated guess, needs to be confirmed, that give the countries a bonus too, to recover...

For US i mentioned it, had been in deflation, got penalty of 20% inflation, by normal gameplay from me i reduced it in two years down to 8% due to subvention, no deficit at all and economic sunrise for a couple of times.

i think have seen additional militancy increase too, forcing me to use all three reforms in 1854.

keeping this in mind i checked the other nation by ch.frc in the console without hosting, went through the ledgers and saw, they had even not dealt with the effects of the last crisis.

they still had high stockpiles of money and PC, due to the penalty system still high "inflation" and i had run out of structures...

US had over 120 mfg, 36 used per turn but over 3000 free capital per turn.

i built two structures each turn and still had too much money thus a crisis was obviously coming as soon the old crisis end was a couple of months ago.

this system is the first one i would claim to be a thing in PON what really keeps me away from playing it (anyway, dont have time at the moment neither)

given the games interface and design it was the right screw to be dealt with, but since inflation already never worked as i should (from my point of view), the econ. crisis system is raping the AI and the player at the same time

[yellow ribbon]

regarding your idea of the stabilizing effect of maintenance

Lohmann-Ruchti-Effect was identified in the 1950s, but already described by Marx and Engels, and even they quoted others and observed only.

it means, from my view:

what u described was used commonly a tax based effect of refinancing already in the 1840s / 1850s and possibly far earlier in history.
its more or less only a spillover effect of capital, for the strict difference from heavy industrial goods and other were not yet complete.

see:

QUOTE:

"From 1869 to 1879, the US economy grew at a rate of 6.8% for NNP (GDP minus capital depreciation) and 4.5% for NNP per capita.

The economy repeated this period of growth in the 1880s, in which the wealth of the nation grew at an annual rate of 3.8%, while the GDP was also doubled.

Real wages also increased greatly during the 1880s.[14]

Economist Milton Friedman states that for the 1880s, "The highest decadal rate [of growth of real reproducible, tangible wealth per head from 1805 to 1950] for periods of about ten years was apparently reached in the eighties with approximately 3.8 percent."[15]"

THE MAIN POINT OF DIFFERENCES were the fast gain of relative wages / purchase power parity in this time (would be later half of the game)

what is logical for the case of US, who had the major increase of population 20 years before the major increase of industry (due to a couple of recessions and the Civil War)

even 1840s and 1850s steam machines and transmission machines were rather adjusted on site of production to needs, than being bulkware which could be replaced without problems.

that was one of the main reasons why technological development went on so dramatically fast and was used whenever it was possible.
buy the next state of the art was more interesting, than simply to replace it.
locomotives are a pretty good example, for 15-20 years there was no major improvement of the efficiency of the engine-to-wheel-power transmission, but everyone wanted the next model.
even after the horizontal transmission improved it drastically, the big jump came only with the standardized railroad system and the fast extension of tracks (the americans then even used mainly wood to fire the engines int the west, not looking for the poor efficiency at all, as long it worked)

[Cohnman5]

Today patch N "nova" was posted on the Paradox forums for Pride of Nations. Please update and see if your economic/military problems have been solved.