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observations patch "L" RC September 2011

Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:17 pm

Objection, Your Honor. He's Badgering The Witness...

question to the devs:

regarding foreign investment you wanted to enforce it, to have commercial agreement before it is possible.

i acknowledged the last time, that this was broken, you announced it to be just badly coordinated and that it will be fixed next time.
now its next time, i installed it clean and completely new from DVD, patched to 1.01, patched the new RC over it...

MEXICO is DELIVERING ME GOODS WITHOUT COMMERCIAL AGREEMENT... AGAIN...


WAD ???
********

still get every mission for foreign countries as a red read report

*************

USA, western Illinois, Peoria docks is misspelled

**********

Pocus, you published pics with clickable shortcuts to the ledgers (F1...F10) in the upper edge of the games screen.
this does not work, at least not with the out of box version (clean new installation, patched to 1.01 and then the new RC)

***************

for the rest, i love the added DB

:cool:

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yellow ribbon
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Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:47 am

i fear the installer is a bad idea for the people who use a out of the box version...

come on lads, it cant be that i do have 53% confederate activity in Washington in May 1851...

this bug was solved weeks ago and assume the installer is causing that kind of problems, does it...?

ah, i also see that others dont see the shortcuts to the ledgers at the paradox forum... :(

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Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:59 pm

yellow ribbon wrote:i fear the installer is a bad idea for the people who use a out of the box version...

come on lads, it cant be that i do have 53% confederate activity in Washington in May 1851...

this bug was solved weeks ago and assume the installer is causing that kind of problems, does it...?

ah, i also see that others dont see the shortcuts to the ledgers at the paradox forum... :(


You can try to install patch to custom directory, the copy it to actual game directory.

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yellow ribbon
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Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:17 pm

thx,

but i even tried it with deleting the original folders and then copy it, like you would probably advise, manually...

there is a lot of talking about this issue in different places.

even gamersgate´s version does not show the click-able shortcuts to ledgers F1 - F10

maybe we got J meanwhile they got L (i am kidding)

no, seriously even Pocus was surprised about this problem!

ok, thats it, i am rioting:

a sunny rest of the weekend to all, i am AWOL :non:

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Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:12 pm

yellow ribbon wrote:thx,

but i even tried it with deleting the original folders and then copy it, like you would probably advise, manually...

there is a lot of talking about this issue in different places.

even gamersgate´s version does not show the click-able shortcuts to ledgers F1 - F10

maybe we got J meanwhile they got L (i am kidding)

no, seriously even Pocus was surprised about this problem!

ok, thats it, i am rioting:

a sunny rest of the weekend to all, i am AWOL :non:


Actualy i post too hastly because i dint see them too... Manual installing did not work. Maybe resolution? What resolution you using? Main is 1152x864.


Anyone knows how graphic files for those buttons named? I want to chek did they installed at all.

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yellow ribbon
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Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:33 pm

fellow gamers, dear devs...

just some observations from a couple of experiments in the morning, while actually cooking in the kitchen:

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND TO START A NEW CAMPAIGN WITH PATCH "L"

the known problem with militancy is now solved in an excellent way, 6 additional points of militancy can be reduced by the new reforms.
however, this is not enough to rescue a game with 60% militancy in the 1860s /1870s. i tried it, but militancy increases again and again to that high levels, it seems to sustain itself.
i did not see the martial law action!

********

second, the new trade system backfired...
you have more trade and lower prices even for rares like minerals. i am pouring out my cash, set taxes to the max limit, spend as much as i can, but after 4-5 years i am running out of interesting structures. fine to have now over 30 cotton plantations as US, but after building 10, i do have again stockpiles of 600 and more

the penalty for huge stockpiles was lowered as i see it, piling cash, state funds and barely some structures left, i have my first experience with the new ECONOMIC CRISIS in the 1850s

i dont want to see this in a not-limited game of the 1870s and this is actually described as a huge problem in different forums now!

*********

the colonial system was revised very good, I DECLARED PROTECTORATE IN SAMOA just in 1853...

why is this worthy to mention? For many of my fellow gamers are claiming in different forums that this kinds of actions would be still impossible and i can just assume that it has agian something to do with the use of old saves or use of older patches.

the "influenced territory blocks colonial actions"-problem IS SOLVED in generally... so stop the gibberish in all kinds of forum, that it still would not work

EDIT:

SAMOA IS ONLY SHOWN AS AN AMERICAN INFLUENCED TERRITORY (WAD/BUG? is there any Samoa event in the 1890s later on) and i cant remember that there was a message of success with the declaration of Protectorate, but i do have 100% military control and cant build F2 structures as i want to do...

PS:

can anybody with an out of box game confirm or reject the theory that the 1870s scenario is causing many critical breakdowns....

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Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:50 pm

for Pocus... (or Phill. M. / Phil T. / Fer. in generally)

i know you already wrote you will check it but please either delete the marketing pictures at Paradox or add a note that there is a problem, until you clarified it.

People all over the world in all kinds of language are banging their head on the desk, while trying in vein to find the error in the installation...
this is truly a situation where i hate to understand that many languages. :tournepas

see attached, main screen is clean as a whistle, thus already two of your pictures misleading

EDIT:

Quoting Pocus:

"Both the structure upgrade problem and lack of F1-F10 icons problems are now fixed on our side, sorry for the inconvenience, we will publish yet another beta patch."
Attachments
mainscreen.jpg

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Sir Garnet
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Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:11 am

I like the list of deactivated facilities - nature and location are the key pieces of info - the name is nice to have, but often does not indicate what kind of facility it is, which is key to my decision whether to shut down that input demand and product output.

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Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:38 am

yeap, its very handy...

But as you can see at my screenshot, at least with the out of the box version plus 1.01-ootb-patch plus 1.01L-installer..

IT IS LACKING TOO ;)


i am just disappointed that the effects of trade and change of economy model are totally counterfighting themselves and thus leading to high cash flow...

after my economic crisis i do have 1500 free cash each turn and deflation of two percent...
i decided to start over again and spend even more cash for everything. you know me, i like experimenting with the effects in steady state analysis...

unfortunately, all of my saved games giving me critical breakdowns on row... some reports are in the web with the scenarios as well, only GC works as stable and smooth as never


EDIT:

is it WAD that the anchorages are now displayed like a mix of anchorage overruled by a fort ???


PS:

regarding foreign investment and commercial agreement. ok, thats leads to a shift of about three years for this kind of money spending... but it does not block me from doing it.
i minor suggestion, if you plan to tweak it really at one day with too much time, it must be connected to turn-based additional cost of tariff / customs or it must be a subtraction from the total production of the site, staying in the foreign country and not delivered to the major nation...

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Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:21 pm

why is SEWERS-action (alt-F4) now possible in all areas, even there where development and population is that low that i cant build a fruit orchard ???

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Pocus
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Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:32 am

yellow ribbon wrote:why is SEWERS-action (alt-F4) now possible in all areas, even there where development and population is that low that i cant build a fruit orchard ???


Here are the constraints of importance

MinControl = 90
DevLevelMin = 30
CityMinLevel = 2

Basically, this is a great way to up your dev level... Do you see oddities, like building sewers without a town?
Image


Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

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Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:56 am

morning Phil,


yeap, i do... in the deep Rockiers, 6 peasants living there and i cannot even build an orchard... lets say i find it interesting that i can build sewers there...

i mean, first the roads were cut to certain very low developed regions, now i can build sewers instead...
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sewers westcoast.jpg
sewers eastcoast.jpg
roads.jpg

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Sir Garnet
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Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:05 am

yellow ribbon wrote:EDIT:

is it WAD that the anchorages are now displayed like a mix of anchorage overruled by a fort ???


Glad that I'm not the only one


yellow ribbon wrote:regarding foreign investment and commercial agreement. ok, thats leads to a shift of about three years for this kind of money spending... but it does not block me from doing it.
i minor suggestion, if you plan to tweak it really at one day with too much time, it must be connected to turn-based additional cost of tariff / customs or it must be a subtraction from the total production of the site, staying in the foreign country and not delivered to the major nation...


I'm very interested in this subject but I don't understand what you mean.

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Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:40 pm

Quote: Originally Posted by yellow ribbon
EDIT:

is it WAD that the anchorages are now displayed like a mix of anchorage overruled by a fort ???

Glad that I'm not the only on


********

NOPE, anchorage is displayed like forts, and i acknowledged at the northern frontier to Canada that a (alt-F2) Fort is not displayed.

the fort is in the structures list, but the harbor is the only thing displayed on map!

BUG!




***

next thing, the B-terminal for trade was crippled... many small offers from states, mainly below 10 units of measure, are not shown and have to be searched for manually from tradezones in the foreign countries.

***

another this, i do know that after a couple of structures, there is the 20% added cost for the next structures, its in the change log.

is it truly WAD that at the end a cotton plantation in USA cost more than 2000 (two thousand) units private capital ???

that more than five times than the first couple of cotton plantations... (built all over 30 additional structures)

*********


BTW:

since yesterday evening there is a tiny hotfix out for the patch "L"

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Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:51 pm

and a graphic hickup:

the new reforms, the social protection reform

after i used the education reform i do have a second, but empty button for social security reform

had it yesterday and after new start it was gone, now its again there

see pic:
Attachments
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Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:08 pm

I'm very interested in this subject but I don't understand what you mean.[/QUOTE]

hello Sir Garnet,

i promised you a chat about my opinion.

what we have to deal with is another compound of side effects:

in patch "I" it was introduced that it is necessary to have a commercial agreement with a country before you can invest there.

its a good idea, but was broken.

now, it is fixed, so far so good, here come the side effects...

first, once you had a commercial agreement you can invest as much as you want.
within a half year i built every single sugar plantation, every coffee field and some pot still in Brazil...

it was possible for the new economy.the new prices, the lowered penalty for huge stocks and the new trade algorithm leading to the fact, that US is swimming in cash within 5 years.
that all despite the lowered number of structures in the pool, the more spread resource sites and the huge cost after some buildings are given (i mentioned above whether this is truly WAD)


second, for a commercial agreement you need primary good diplomatic relations. the main option here is local support, for it is not necessary that the foreign country accept it.
this was very good simulated till now. but here comes the problem, the duration of local support was extended and now i dont know where to go with all my diplomats... i can waste them like ice at the north pole.

thats what i meant with all is just shifted for three years, no problem to get commercial agreement if you spend that much time with local support.

next is, i believe after a commercial agreement expired, you can still invest in this country...

you wanted to fight power playing, the total opposite was gained by all the uncoordinated side effects !!!

**************

now to my minds, RICARDO !!!

there are only two kinds of way to balance it:

the first is to have for a player, which is investing in foreign countries, an excess burden.
the player (or AI) must have to pay a amount of money additionally to all maintenance costs turn for turn to the foreign country.
it mus be painful enough to the economy, but for you lowered the prices in the last patch, this would be a pain for the team to balance it, and needs lot of planing and calculation, a case for modding volunteers if you want to say it that way...


the second method is, to reduce the output in foreign investment (especially in case of agricultural products).

basically two approaches can be found in history:

a)

for every good you produce in my country and export it, one good will stay in my country (additionally to all maintenance) and for the rest you have to pay me taxes and and customs (either based on information of the ledger F1 or of the settings of the ledger F4 [if AI does influence it for NP-nations])

b) more use of Ricardos theorems (i.e. of relative wages) in international trade.

since there is no currency exchange model in the game this would be more than tricky:

for the price element and therefore the currency (purchase power parity) is lacking in the game, it would mean that the production in foreign countries must be much more bound to development level and financial structure in the foreign country. especially minors and unorganized.

it would be possible to lower the output like in a) to simulate protectionism / tariffs and so one and additionally as a second variable in the calculation simulating a kind of huge toll / decay / amount of rotting goods or whatever you want to call it to simulate the lacking effect of comparative advantages in trade and wages.

historically a foreign investment was used in case that the effectiveness in foreign countries is possibly lower than at home, but the lower wages or raw material prices plus transport costs and losses of goods on the way outweigh this problem...

what brings us to another very important third variable, certainly more easy and quicker to implement... especially high transport costs from national production sites in foreign countries to national markets...

gamers would not accept just to implement lower effectiveness to simulate it all, so the must be an algorithm of two or three variables AND variables we do have already (infrastructure, population, techs everything would stay untouched)

of course this is all daydreaming now, but at the moment, especially with the new trade system, i do have to say it, it backfired totally (regarding GC with USA) and literally shot the horse under the rider to painful, slow death

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f.i.

Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:24 pm

Just thinking off the top of my head, I wonder if foreign investment doesn't become a capital only thing?

By that I mean that if you invest in a wool farm in Chile, what you get back from that is a slice of the profits. Maybe that's a modern point of view, but a group of investors would want money back, not so much a big pile of wool. So, what I'm thinking is that the inputs and outputs that are 'goods' stay in the country, while what it looks like to the foreign investor is a input cost of capital in and an output cost of capital out.

To the host country, they get extra drains on resources from the inputs going into this new facility. They get the output from the facility into their national pool. Facilities that help a national economy by these actions should be the ones that create the biggest profits for investors.

The world gets more of this good, at first in the national market of the host country, which might lower that country's demand, or then eventually in terms of extra output on the world market.

Too much output on the world market drops the price of the good, which in turn means less profit/capital for the foreign investors, eventually leading perhaps to a selling off of the investment. Maybe that's a different action that 'shutting down' a domestic facility, in that you've got a one time action to 'sell' the foreign investment and recover cash for that. The facility then becomes a 'national' facility, which may be shut down by the local AI in a future decision loop.

Maybe an option to 'buy' local facilities. Especially, or maybe limited to, ones that are shut down. Perhaps when you 'shut down' a local facility yourself, one possible outcome would be foreign investors buying it?

Might also add some ability to get 'profit/capital' from other non-good foreign investments. For example, if I remember my history correctly, foreign investors were responsible for building a lot of railroads in America. So, maybe something like a railroad is another thing that has a constant cost in terms of an investment of capital, but which then always returns more than the investment in terms of the profits. Thus foreign investors have an incentive to build/back locally-needed infrastructure projects

I'm thinking of old Sherlock Holmes novels, where British investors would buy shares in various overseas ventures. Dr. Watson didn't send his own stocks of steel and mech parts to construct a goods factory overseas, and he didn't expect to get grates of goods back in return for his investment. Such investors invested their capital, and they expected to see their capital grow.

Frgn. investment decisions become based on
1) ability to sell resulting good in target nat. market (high target nation tarrifs help make this more profitable/likely)
2) ability to make a profit selling nat mrkt overflow to world market. (weighted average of tariffs in world purchasing nations makes this more or less profitable)
3) low corporate taxes in target nation mean more profits. lower national corporate taxes if you want to attract more for. invest.

Tooltips, or perhaps a display screen of potential foreign investment opportunities would help make this easy for a player, hopefully. ;) The screen could look like an old-time stock market company, or perhaps the advert page of a London newspaper advertising investment opportunities?

Maybe eventually have some diplomatic options and effects related to this. Ie, a country that raises local corporate taxes when they already have a lot of foreign investment would expect to have more problems with the government of the countries that are invested in their country. They might find diplomatic requests/demands to lower corporate taxes soon headed their way.

Again, just random thoughts on playing this interesting game and reading this thread. Use, ignore or laugh at them as you will. ;)

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Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:01 pm

The game is about making a representation of economic growth and colonialism with the right feel, not a detailed simulation, which is to say the very least difficult to collapse into game terms.

There are efficiency gains from infrastructure and technology, but factor costs are basically fixed globally, which makes Ricardo's valuable insights about comparative advantage much less relevant. As for not having explicit transportation costs, I had been thinking that and transportation infrastructure level effects may in fact act as a rough adjustment in lieu of factors creating comparative advantages. And his theories of wages and prices indeed may be more useful to a game mechanism than a real economy.

Interesting. I will need to think on all you've written.

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Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:28 am

"There are efficiency gains from infrastructure and technology, but factor costs are basically fixed globally, which makes Ricardo's valuable insights about comparative advantage much less relevant. "

thats what i meant, it is necessary to substitute the effects measured in money.

I am originally a studied economist,

Ricardo was wrong in generally and in detail (as was Keynes and the latter one knew it and wrote it in his books himself)

however the comparative advantage is a typical concept of planing in this time period, but by games interface excluded from all thinking about it!

this leads us to an algorithm with at least three variable, one of them is the normal gameplay which could be totally untouched.

time is also a excluded variable and exchange rates and purchase power parity too...

it gives us only two variables left, transaction cost and output.

**********

now lets also exclude asian and african colonies.

this was a matter of states (but in case of Belgiums king) and major additional cost comes from colonial problems and could only be extended by transaction cost.

this narrows it down, that is merely nonsens that i am able to get the same output, whether in form of money, or in form of goods in Brazil, like i would have 5 miles down the Potomac.

for u cannot change it piecemeal for every kind of structure in a certain ground, in a certain time frame, it narrows it down to my minds above

in the moment you can still shift production elsewhere and thereby sustain on your own economy. be autark...

@ lookslikerain...

basically you are right with the formulation of that times behavior, but i would like to add some comments... its jus 2a.m here, thus i will "shift this" somewhat :D

one thing, it was not only money for investors, you are too much focused of an argument called very often in the last time here, at paradox and elsewhere: shareholder value and risk especially of railroads...

this would be nearly impossible to balance in the global environment, for i.e. USA did the very same mistakes with RR int the 1870s in a total other economic environment as the europeans did in the 1840s...

just think about Dole who made in pineapples for tens of years, had huge losses some years, and then after political changes in Hawaii started to produce closer to the US market and increased his margin dramatically as a quasi-monopolist.

think about Carnegie who even produced cast iron and raw steel in Belgium and then shipped it to USA, for the reason of far better technological progress AND the excess of raw materials in few single spots.
while USA had not such highly developed places due to the destruction in war or just tremendous disinvestment in the heavy industry after the ACW

the effect of investors capital is in game, but not immediately for foreign investment, only for inflation. it sustains the margin in case of inflation in an rate of percents, while 15 additional goods of silk offered can decrease the price from 21 to 6 within one single turn...

bound it to capital only and you will have much higher excess capital than now and i lately had all important structures built and running with 3500 additional private capital each turn (end 1856)

unfortunately this kind of approach would lead to the same effect... stockpiling cash

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Sir Garnet
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Solution to excess working private capital?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:37 am

The player-accessible economy is not the whole economy. There is a whole layer of economic activity - production and consumption - below the grand scale of the player's projects. Labor relations and compensaton are only implicitly modelled, and the realm of immobile private assets (real estate and fixtures) as well as other property is omitted other than the enterprises represented on the map. This is good from the game perspective. The player-controlled portion of the economy interacts mainly with the underlying economy by selling products to it and receiving payment in private capital that is then used to extract, make or buy more to sell to the domestic market.

However, if the working capital of the country is large, wouldn't the people who have put it into all attractive available investments also use some of it for themselves - withdrawn into the private sphere again, for long term assets (such as hovels, townhouses, or estates) or consumption of underlying economy goods and services (including charity, which was a big deal back then)?

Unlike the wastage of capital accurately represented by Economic Crisis, this expenditure would have positive effects from point of view of the people able to enjoy its results. This might reduce Miitancy for various classes depending on National Attributes while slightly increasing city values, increasing Contentment and prestige (probably based on private spending per capita for the class with the marginal benefit declining with greater proportions of spending, the overall affluence of the society, greater contentment, and lower militancy).

This would, for example, be the American pathway forward without an unrealistic level of interventionistic social reforms before the turn of the century saw progressives get their hands on the levers of power. It would not work so well for autocratic regimes, particularly not for oppressed classes.

A real estate/private spending boom would normally precede an economic crisis - or at least should not be in effect at the same time - and the level of private spending should not be enough to adversely affect the player-controlled economy. A cushion should be allowed above working capital needs and normal capital investment/colonial and other actions, with a graduated rate to avoid a sharp cut-off.

For example, a country needing 5000 PC in working capital for trade and production, increasing PC by 1500 per turn, and having other PC uses running in the 5000 range averaged over the past 6 months might after PC exceeds 13000 see this 1500 increase diverted to the private economy starting at a 10% rate from 13000 to 14000 and escalating to 90% rate over 21,000.

Another outlet for private capital would be loans, but, unless they are like 21st century loans that are made with the expectation that they probably will be wasted and never repaid, the private capital will still create value in the player economy and repayments will flow back to the player bankroll.

What do you think?

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Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:01 am

Sir Garnet, i wrote you a private message, dont like to burden the "bug"-thread too much ;)

Edit:

emails is also sent!

for the economic crisis system, well, i am not going to embarrass them here, if this is a point what should be discussed, you will find me... :wacko:

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