Is it acceptable that PoN testers spend time on other things?

[NY Rangers]

[color="Blue"]This thread has been split off from http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=22482 since it relates little specifically to the AAR at hand, but rather raises a general question about the playtesters and playtesting. - Rafiki
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Since you seem to be an "official" beta tester, what's the point of this AAR of a mod, if I may ask? I mean, isn't there enough to do with PON testing already? As a purchaser I'd like PON to be in reasonably good playable state sooner rather than later. There are no such problems with this mod...

[Rafiki]

[color="Blue"]If you have any grievances with PoN, then target them at AGEOD, not at the volunteers who use their own spare time to help out. Everyone who is part of the AGEOD beta teams are exactly that, volunteers, and they therefore get to spend their time however they see fit. If that means playing other games (AGE or not), then that's their call, not fellow forumites'. *sheesh* Perhaps playing such games will give them some insights that they can use during the next round of testing they intend to do?[/color]

Besides, if PoN is, as you say, "unplayable", while the Fatal Years mod isn't, then I'd understand quite well why someone would want to play that for a bit, rather than do "endless" testing with PoN. Just sayin'...

[NY Rangers]

[color="Blue"]If you have any grievances with PoN, then target them at AGEOD, not at the volunteers who use their own spare time to help out. Everyone who is part of the AGEOD beta teams are exactly that, volunteers, and they therefore get to spend their time however they see fit. If that means playing other games (AGE or not), then that's their call, not fellow forumites'. *sheesh* Perhaps playing such games will give them some insights that they can use during the next round of testing they intend to do?[/color]

Besides, if PoN is, as you say, "unplayable", while the Fatal Years mod isn't, then I'd understand quite well why someone would want to play that for a bit, rather than do "endless" testing with PoN. Just sayin'...

Well, maybe you should have testers with more professional attitude? I haven't said that PON is "unplayable", but at this moment of time it needs all the help it can get. Everyone can play whatever they want, but I still see no point in betatester doing an AAR of a mod in the meantime.

[Rafiki]

In an ideal world, every game developer would have 1000 people who had nothing else to do than playtest the games being developed, and who had no need for breaks, downtime or diversions.

Alas, our world is not such a world, especially for small studios developing games that aren't WW2 first-person shooters or allow you to build a farm and grow crops online. Instead, we do what we can with what is made available to us, and if someone who is helping us wants to spend time doing something else in-between, well, that's their call, no-one else's,

From what I've seen, FY is a good mod for RUS, so it's understandable that people at least want to try it. Some people like to write AARs for the games they play (which people like me appreciate, since we like to read AARs).

[color="Blue"]I honestly don't see why you're attacking TheDoctorKing like this, and it would be good of you to stop doing so.[/color]

[NY Rangers]

[color="Blue"]I honestly don't see why you're attacking TheDoctorKing like this, and it would be good of you to stop doing so.[/color]

As much you would like to see this as some sort of a personal attack, I think my criticism is valid from a customer point of view.

[Rafiki]

No it isn't. I'm sorry you don't realize that.

Any and all criticism you have about PoN and the development of it should be targeted at AGEOD and the AGEOD team in general, not at a specific volunteer member of the team, especially since you have no insights into how the team works and what individuals within that team have contributed.

[NY Rangers]

So where can I write criticism about a betatester doing a RUS mod AAR while PON needs more testing? Or is such criticism not allowed? Thank you.

[lodilefty]

So where can I write criticism about a betatester doing a RUS mod AAR while PON needs more testing? Or is such criticism not allowed? Thank you.

Hmmm. if you've got the time to snipe at all the volunteers, perhaps you have the time to test PON and add some value to the world...

[Rafiki]

[color="Blue"]Discussion split off to a thread of its own[/color]

[Gray-Lensman]

deleted

[Rafiki]

So where can I write criticism about a betatester doing a RUS mod AAR while PON needs more testing? Or is such criticism not allowed? Thank you.

Here, in a thread of its own seems to be as good a place as any other for such a debate.

The problem here is that you seem to have an idea that once you volunteer as a betatester, then you have to devote all your time, or at least the time you spend on games and related activities, to such betatesting. Though any game developer wants their associated testers to test as much as possible, I think you'd see a very sharp decline in the number of testers if such demands were made, nor do I think you see such demands made towards testers anywhere.

With this in mind, it's odd that you raise the banner of "customer" and single out an individual volunteer on the team and it shows a shows a lack of understanding for what betatesting is about. I'll hazard a guess that you haven't taken part in any beta projects yourself?

[NY Rangers]

Lol, just look at Gary Grigsby's War in the East, where I'm one of the betatesters and had rebuild the Finnish front from its initial draft... There are other wargames around with my name on the testers list, but enough of that.

I'd like to hear DoctorKing's own opinion on this matter, not some forum police's.

And you can consider this as PON fallout, if you would.

[Gray-Lensman]

deleted

[McNaughton]

Wow, I it always amazes me at what some people demand of others. It is as if their own personal standards must be met by everyone in the world.

That is workaholic behaviour, it is not healthy, and is not productive.

So, let me get this straight, someone is not entitled to a single break even though a project is still under way?

You must realize that without mental breaks, playing and enjoying, that your productivity decreases? You need these breaks, otherwize you are simply wasting your time.

Is there still work to do on Pride of Nations? Yes. Is work still being done? HELL YES! I can state that I have spent many hours every single day working on Pride of Nations in my spare time. Although last weekend I did take a break for a vacation into the United States, although I bet that meets with disapproval too, eh?

Remember, these people (myself included) are volunteers. Even still, this idea of 'work work work' that so many people blindly follow is totally self destructive.

The goal is to 'work to live', not 'live to work', this is our fun, this is our spare time, we already hold down jobs, if you want to turn volunteering into another job, expect people to just avoid it.

[NY Rangers]

Do note that the title of this thread was written by Rafiki, not me. I'm not demanding workaholic behaviour from anybody, but criticizing AGEODs lack of focus here, and wondering what is the purpose of a mod AAR from a betatester.

[lodilefty]

Do note that the title of this thread was written by Rafiki, not me. I'm not demanding workaholic behaviour from anybody, but criticizing AGEODs lack of focus here, and wondering what is the purpose of a mod AAR from a betatester.

Gee, maybe the VOLUNTEER beta tester made a PERSONAL CHOICE to do some recreation....

[Rafiki]

I'm (...)criticizing AGEODs lack of focus here, and wondering what is the purpose of a mod AAR from a betatester.

Wait, do you think that someone has "ordered" TheDoctorKing to write that AAR?

[NY Rangers]

Wait, do you think that someone has "ordered" TheDoctorKing to write that AAR?

Ah, more nonsense from you. Is forum admin's job here to divert focus from more serious issues, and ridicule customers in the process? Let me hazard a guess: you haven't moderated any forums ever before?

[yellow ribbon]

hum? what are you doing if DoctorKing's is busy?

comparative state analysis:

NY Rangers value of time is THAT high that he is literally starving to death without the next patch, while playing/not able to play PON...

however, it does appear it is not high enough to consider turns lengths , but still that high that he cannot avoid to stretch it that far that he turns against beta testers...

thats what we call OVERSHOOTING.

correct me, but no one said that they would stop the support for PON and that it would be the last patch, or did they?
i just ponder... if there will be more to do in future, why overreacting for one volunteer who seems to be able of multitasking ???

there is plenty of time to write an AAR while AI is calculating

As for PON stakeholder... I am working in a PMO in project management, dont even try it with reason or common sense in such cases, they just need an earthwire...

PS:

NY ranger, please dont ask me what i did in beta testing or not like the kind you are responding to Rafiki... i did not, nor am i member of any of AGEODs inner circle.
I would never have THE TIME for it !!!

instead i used to work in project management for erecting power plants and now in an PMO for IT project management dealing with dozens of people explaining me why something is not as scheduled/planed all day long.

I CAN TRULY JUDGE how good AGEOD is dealing with this matter and how good the service for customers is. and they do!

(despite it, i am such a nuisance in monitoring this game, since i consider myself as post-beta-field-tester :sherlock

[lodilefty]

Ah, more nonsense from you. Is forum admin's job here to divert focus from more serious issues, and ridicule customers in the process? Let me hazard a guess: you haven't moderated any forums ever before?

This is probably the most hilarious and uninformed response I've ever seen in any forum, anywhere!

[NY Rangers]

This is probably the most hilarious and uninformed response I've ever seen in any forum, anywhere!

Glad you liked it.

[Rafiki]

Is forum admin's job here to divert focus from more serious issues, and ridicule customers in the process?

Dunno about elsewhere, but hereabouts, one of the forum admins' jobs is to take care of it whenever someone harasses other forum members.

You should also note I'm not ridiculing customers; I'm ridiculing a customer's quite preposterous opinion about one specific topic. Big difference; I hope you see it.

As a PoN customer, you're entitled to any and all opinions you have about the game. Also, your feedback about the game is welcome, especially when it is done in the form of constructive criticism or helpful suggestions. However, being a customer does not mean that you get to use our forums to say anything you like about anything or anyone related to PoN, especially when it comes to people who have voluntarily offer their spare time to help make PoN the best it can be.

Let me hazard a guess: you haven't moderated any forums ever before?

Nice one, I'll have to save it for this year's Christmas party's gag reel

[NY Rangers]

You should also note I'm not ridiculing customers; I'm ridiculing a customer's quite preposterous opinion about one specific topic. Big difference; I hope you see it.

So what is the quite preposterous opinion you are ridiculing here? Does it happen to be your very own interpretation of my criticism, so that you can invite others to ridicule it too? Why is it necessary? I haven't heard anything from DoctorKing yet.

Nice one, I'll have to save it for this year's Christmas party's gag reel

Well, it was your gag, I just recycled it.

[vaalen]

I am deeply grateful to every volunteer. Why should they be limited in how they choose to spend their time?

PON is already my favorite game of all time, and it is getting steadily better. Yes, it still needs a lot of work, but It is being done. By the way, Pocus and Philthib and the volunteers have produced a number of helpful beta patches since the release in June, which have greatly improved the game.

I have posted a number of questions in this forum, and I always get a helpful response, whether from Ageod, the volunteers, my fellow players, and often all of the above.

I have no complaints, and I am very thankful to all who help.

[Rafiki]

So what is the quite preposterous opinion you are ridiculing here?

That TheDoctorKing shouldn't spend time on playing RUS/FY and writing an AAR about his experiences when that's what he'd like to do, while at the same time being part of the PoN beta team, since, in your opinion, PoN has yet to achieve a "reasonably good playable state"

Feel free to clarify any misunderstandings about the point you're trying to make; seems like I'm not the only one reading your posts this way.

[NY Rangers]

That TheDoctorKing shouldn't spend time on playing RUS/FY and writing an AAR about his experiences when that's what he'd like to do, while at the same time being part of the PoN beta team, since, in your opinion, PoN has yet to achieve a "reasonably good playable state"

Feel free to clarify any misunderstandings about the point you're trying to make; seems like I'm not the only one reading your posts this way.

Well of course they do read it like that, thanks to your thread title. Apart from PON, I know that there have been some differences between DoctorKing and the author of the mod, so an AAR about it in time when help is needed elsewhere doesn't look so innocent to me...

[Rafiki]

Well, if you think there is a conspiracy of some kind behind it all, I imagine there is little I can do to convince you otherwise. *shrug*

I have to admit this, though, the Illuminati-player in me would've loved for AGEOD to have that kind of influence over the volunteers

[NY Rangers]

Well, if you think there is a conspiracy of some kind behind it all, I imagine there is little I can do to convince you otherwise. *shrug*

I have to admit this, though, the Illuminati-player in me would've loved for AGEOD to have that kind of influence over the volunteers

No, I'm not suggesting that there's a AGEOD-conspiracy. That's why I asked it straight from DoctorKing, but you wanted to get involved with your nonsense.

[lodilefty]

No, I'm not suggesting that there's a AGEOD-conspiracy. That's why I asked it straight from DoctorKing, but you wanted to get involved with your nonsense.

You feel that all this OT should be embedded in an AAR???

IMNSHO, an admin doing admin to keep focus is a good thing...
SUMO

[TheDoctorKing]

I'm on vacation right now, school starts next week. So I have some time free to do a variety of things. I'm playing a game of World in Flames on VASSAL and I'm involved in the VASL League. I also went camping with my kids and took my wife for a weekend at the coast. I'm a busy guy.

My role in the PoN Beta was principally to work on the regions database. I developed the Latin American regions in the early testing process. Later, I developed the events that create rail lines in AI-controlled countries worldwide at more or less their historical times. I am currently thinking about recommending that roads be put in some areas that don't have them. I made some recommendations about gameplay, some of which were adopted and some not. I played in the beta AAR game. Over the summer, I was teaching at a university in Baltimore and I only had my rather slow laptop with me, so I couldn't play much. But I think I made some important contributions to PoN, certainly enough to allow myself the ego-gratification of identifying myself as a PoN Beta Tester.

But, as several people have said in this thread already, I am a volunteer, not an employee of AGEOD/Paradox. I work my own schedule and I don't invite other people to criticize how I choose to spend my time.

On the other topic: I enjoy the Athens/Clovis mods, both SVF and this one. I think he is a gifted designer of AIs, and a lot of people seem to share my appreciation. I think that I am pretty good at writing AARs, and I hope that my AAR will help the designer figure out how to improve his work. Nobody told me to do this AAR, except the people who responded to my last AAR and said they thought it was useful and interesting.