Mowers
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Design flaw to think about

Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:07 am

I dont know how VGN is going to built but I wanted to add some thoughts that "may" help or just give you some food for thought:

In the early days of Victoria beta one of the places I personally feel that the game laid the foundations for future failure was the approach to population break out. In many ways the POPs approach was fantastic, I really liked it, but there was one major issue:

Farmers globally were classified the same. Rather than have different types of farmers there was one universal category. Even if you go to India or Africa today you can see that many of these people are still not equal in development culturally to farmers in Western Europe in 1850. Yet, Victoria made all these folks the same.

The result was that the main base line population (farmers) in the USA, UK and Netherlands was the same as the main base line population of most of Africa, India and China.

The outcome of this was that it was, of course, just as easy to develop rural indian farmers as it was to develop farmers in Surrey Southern England. So we had huge modern armies being raised in india along side modern industry which they still struggle with in certain rural Indian areas today.

The overall effect was that the game needed to continually draw up "hard rules" in new patches to get around the model inconsistencies that were creating very odd results. Of course all they were doing at this point was band-aiding a broken system, and band-aid's dont stay on long before another is required.

Now, I am not saying this was the only problem with the game. Afterall there were some major other issues even at this early beta stage such as Navies were going to be meaningless except to transport troops! But it was one of those core problems.

I believe that hard-fixing/ band-aiding after the problem event causes alot of problems. Better to get the model right at the begining, and keep it simple, working is always better than not working right?

Anyway, like I said at the begining, there may well not be any relevance to the current work; but maybe it gives you something else to consider as you develop what I hoping is going to be a great game.

Good luck :)

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PhilThib
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Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:12 am

Thanks for the input. The population model is in VGN, but much less complex and detailed than in Vicky, although it serves a similar role.

In particular, having millions of Indian 'farmers' under British controlled won't help Queen Victoria raising a larger UK Home army ;) ... or even a huge Indian army (although the British army in India is quite impressive).

The main difference is that, in the military system, we have force pool and replacements, and the population contribution to these is more realistic :cool:
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Evans
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Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:47 pm

Is there any kind of modifier for colonies regarding manpower (i.e. racist rules regarding who can join up) and restrictions of how/what troops can be raised where then?

Palpat
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Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:56 pm

PhilThib wrote:In particular, having millions of Indian 'farmers' under British controlled won't help Queen Victoria raising a larger UK Home army ;) ... or even a huge Indian army (although the British army in India is quite impressive).


Such abuse are over since Revolutions! ;)

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PhilThib
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Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:47 pm

Evans wrote:Is there any kind of modifier for colonies regarding manpower (i.e. racist rules regarding who can join up) and restrictions of how/what troops can be raised where then?


In colonies, you only raise colonial troops...and there are different types of colonies in the game...plus force pools... ;)
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Evans
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Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:43 am

:wacko: Sounds excellent - any chance of a beta test?

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Rafiki
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Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:45 am

Evans wrote: :wacko: Sounds excellent - any chance of a beta test?

Check out http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=11060; the due date has passed, but that doesn't mean you can't show your interest :)
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Mowers
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Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:07 pm

Palpat wrote:Such abuse are over since Revolutions! ;)


Indeed and Revolutions was an excellent release and drastically improved an stunningly innovative but sadly flawed base release product. Unfortunately so many core things were broken that the game was perhaps un-savable? Either way, Victoria provides some useful lessons, both good and bad.

Palpat
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Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:38 pm

Last time I checked, some work were under progress for a fan-based upgrade, thanks to paradox's release of source code for older games.

Time will tell.

Mowers
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Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:49 pm

Palpat wrote:Last time I checked, some work were under progress for a fan-based upgrade, thanks to paradox's release of source code for older games.

Time will tell.


Someone hire OHgamer ;)

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Evans
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Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:06 pm

AFAIK he said he didn't have the time to invest in a project based on the source code. At least, that's what I seem to remember anyway. If I had any skills and any idea of what it meant in terms of what one could do I'd love to dive in there! Game design has always interested me, but unfortunately I don't have the skills to change computerised versions into something more akin to what I'd like.

Palpat
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Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:34 pm

Well, AFAIK he was working on the source code. Will ask in the forum.

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Evans
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Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:34 am

Maybe my memory is playing up, or maybe I'm referring to old news...

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Rafiki
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Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:22 pm

[color="Blue"]Guys, Paradox has a whole forum for discussing Paradox stuff... ;) [/color]
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