Nomadicjam
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Multiplayer. Trials and Tribulations.

Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:40 pm

Greetings,

As you may have seen in the multiplayer threads myself and 06Maestro have been trying to organise an mp game over the last few weeks with difficulty encountered due to timezones and availability. Nevertheless we persevered and achieved our matchup yesterday.

I can say that the initial successes were most pleasing.
Once I'd received Maestro's IP and Port, finding his game in the MP section was easy and stress free. We also managed to connect without any issues.

The canvas for our battle of wills to be painted upon was the 'Serbian' scenario in Wego mode. (although there was some confusion to at this point considering we both thought we were playing a/a)

What followed was a relatively fast paced contest, (I say relatively because I am not the quickest of cats) Where we encountered only two problems.

The First: The Military phase not moving into the Reinforcement phase until some of the interceptions I'd set had been cancelled. (I don't know if this was because I'd set them in the wrong turn or that the AI considered that phase unfinished.)

The Second: By far the most frustrating, My reinforcement phase ending without my consent. This happened twice in two different games.

Still, this was a positive beginning. More so due to my AH Major Victory :winner: (Sorry Maestro, I couldn't resist :D )
As we now had that game under our belts and we were both feeling suitably confident we decided to move onto the ultimate test. One Full turn of the GC in a/a with everything checked, apart from 'Simple Supply Lines'.

This is where things started to go downhill...
In the first attempt at the GC we managed to get as far the Diplomacy phase before Maestro's game crashed. Before it crashed he'd had some issues with a sticky cursor.
Next attempt, We got onto the Military phase of Early August 1914.
I was CP and, rather strangely, I got to go first with AH in Serbia due to use of the Koenig Plan. Maestro was using the Grand-duke plan so I am uncertain which of us should of being going first, or whether it mattered as their on different fronts and Mandatory attacks in Early August 1914 are considered to be simultaneous. (?)
I conducted my moves clicked enact and all the animations moved to there locations but then reset to there starting points. So no battles happened.
Even though this was obviously an error the game still allowed access to other screens; munitions, research etc.
Possibly the most confusing and what I consider to be what caused the problems is that certain armies which should be locked were not.
In my warplans I'd opted for Diplomatic Poker as the Germans and had successfully brought Italy onto the CP's. The reason I mention this is because AH 7th and 8th armies which are usually locked were not and as you know in a/a mode you have to activate all your armies before you can pass the turn over to your opponent. So when I tried to send a corp into 7th HQ reserves my cursor got stuck in a fist and I was unable to move it. Although I could still scroll the screen using the arrow keys, which caused me some bemusement as the towns, Armies, sea mines etc moved with the screen.

I had to turn my computer off due to the game not letting me quit properly, alt-control-delete etc.

So we tried again (Same plans, same options etc) and this time we did get the battles in Serbia which went off without a hitch.
But the problem of armies which should be locked were yet again not. In early august I enjoyed the additional movements of AH 7th 8th Armies, Italian 1st and 2nd and also Turkish 3rd and was in the process of moving the 4th when the game did exactly as fore mentioned.
I think it necessary to mention that Armies which should be locked on the fronts which had mandatory attacks were locked.

After another reboot we decided to go back to the Serbian scenario but using a/a. We changed round teamwise. This time we seemed to be progressing quite well although the problems which occured in the Wego happened again.
Then the game crashed for me at the beginning of October but the AI took over and I was left twiddling my thumbs and missed the big battle for Belgrade. But thats not a particularly huge gripe only because it shows that unless its the hosts computer which bombs the AI does take over from a joining player if theirs crashes.

I hope this rather lengthy post at least highlights some of the issues and apologise if this just seems like a catalogue of woes. I also apologise for a lack of accompanying screenshots.

I will also add that I have no intention of giving up on this game, I can only imagine how much work has gone into it and I am in agreement with Maestro that the multiplayer side of this has the potential to be amazing.
Both of us encountered situations which can only be attributed to a human player: In the GC, Maestro gave me a bloody nose in Serbia before retiring 'in good order' leaving me already doubtful as to the gains I could make in the long run if I was to be hard pressed by The Russian offensive in the East.
Or: When, in the Serbian Wego game, I was able to switch from a fast aggressive attack in the opening turns to a measured defense in the latter.

So, as problematic as the mp might be you have an absolute gem of gaming potential. In the future I think we shall stick to the Wego for some of the larger scenario's for now. But perseverance is the order of the day!
A l'avance! :dada:

Nomadicjam
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Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:35 pm

Perhaps I should have been a little more specific in my post.
Is there any likelihood of the mp problems listed above being addressed in a future patch? Do you want me to record/screenshot any bugs encountered during mp play if it would help prevent these issues?

06 Maestro
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Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:11 pm

I really enjoyed the MP game-first in a while-too bad that some issues broke it before we got very far.

I should have mentioned to Nomadicjam that there were issues with "reaction" in MP games. I suspect that was one of the big problems. Several times the game switched player order-I did not do it. It happened at least twice-it did work its way through it, but it takes nearly a minute or so-don't know what is happening-stuck or what.

The cursor issue was a strange event-I have not had that since the early version of the original game. It occurred the instant that I was typing in chat and some events popped up. I had to close the game-playing with the jerky cursor is not an option. Fortunately, it did not happen again.

The opening choices by Nomadicjam were a bit unusual. Getting Italy in with the CP on turn one might be confusing the game a bit. There does seem to be an issue in activating the A/H 7th and 8th Armies.

It is noteworthy that during the first game (Serbian scenario), during which we did not use army by army activation, the game ran perfect on my end. I suspect that some of the issues in each game were caused by a lack of experience-I am a bit rusty myself in MP and it was my opponents first shot with WW1. There is a flow to the game that can only come with experience.

We will be giving this another go soon. I am going to re-install outside of Program Files to see if that helps.

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calvinus
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Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:13 pm

Hello all, I've read carefully your posts. I'll try to work on these issues in my LAN during next week-end. As 06 Maestro knows, my spare time is now almost zero... so I could take a lot of time before all these issues can be addressed. :( Also because such MP issues are always very though to work on... :bonk:

06 Maestro
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Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:43 pm

calvinus wrote:Hello all, I've read carefully your posts. I'll try to work on these issues in my LAN during next week-end. As 06 Maestro knows, my spare time is now almost zero... so I could take a lot of time before all these issues can be addressed. :( Also because such MP issues are always very though to work on... :bonk:



Don't sweat it just yet. We will have another go at it soon and come up with more specific issues. I will also provide a saved file from the next game appropriately annotated :) .

It was interesting in that reactions actually worked-I don't recall that functioning without a CTD after the first post release patch.

Nomadicjam
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Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:51 pm

Thank you for your reply Calvinus, and thanks in advance for the work you put in. As I said, Wego seems to be fairly problem free so I hope to get more games in of that :)

Several times the game switched player order-I did not do it. It happened at least twice-it did work its way through it, but it takes nearly a minute or so-don't know what is happening-stuck or what.


I think what you may have been experiencing was only the time delay it took for me to plan and enact my reactions. :siffle: I didn't experience any problems, they took place between activation of AH 5th and 2nd Armies as planned. (Gotta love Radomir Putnik)

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Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:33 am

We played a few games tonight. Each time it gets easier. As I said before; there is a certain flow to MP playing. MP is a bit more daunting than SP as you have someone else messing with your game. Starting off with this in MP it is wise to keep it simple. Don't do the turn flips or the reactions. After familiarity sets in, then do the more wild things-then you know if it is the game messing up or the players.

We did a couple (or 3) Tannenburgs and Corporretto. The first time with Corporretto the game froze as my esteemed opponent decided to invade Austria on turn one. The Italian Armies activated and moved-but no combat. Granted, an Italian invasion is out of line for that scenario, but the game should either block the action-or allow it and play on. As it was we were left wondering for a few minutes. The next time around that little move was averted and the game played out as it should.

Using the square unit icons I could not see any outline for advance pursuit/breakthrough. I had to click around the different stacks. Those do show up on the 3d icons. I never noticed that before, but I never played Corporetto before-maybe scenario specific-I'll check.

The game is playing fine in the scenarios'. It is just unforgiving to players errors. The reaction thing is still a bit strange. It could be player unfamiliarity coupled with the added lag when using that. It can take over half a minute for it to update-confusing.

It was good to get some good MP battles going again. Even with a decent ai, a human opponent is much different. Players should give it a shot-just keep it simple at first. The scenarios are the best way to go for getting used to MP play.

I still hope to get a 4 way game going sometime. I think it would actually be quicker than playing against the ai or 2 way MP. All the politics can be done while another player is doing his mil phase. Each player would have much less to do ordering the forces-and would not need to take time to refresh the situation on each front-as he would have one main front. Some fine day...

06 Maestro
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Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:08 am

I confirmed that the color hint for breakthrough units is not showing while using the NATO unit markers. It is quite clear with the 3d sprites.

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poweraxe
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Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:23 pm

06 Maestro wrote:I still hope to get a 4 way game going sometime. I think it would actually be quicker than playing against the ai or 2 way MP. All the politics can be done while another player is doing his mil phase. Each player would have much less to do ordering the forces-and would not need to take time to refresh the situation on each front-as he would have one main front. Some fine day...


If you plan to do a 4 player game eventually, I would like to join in :) This game is a lot of fun, and I would like to try an MP game sometime.

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Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:45 pm

poweraxe wrote:If you plan to do a 4 player game eventually, I would like to join in :) This game is a lot of fun, and I would like to try an MP game sometime.


Excellent. We still need to work our way up to the GC first-we will be proceeding with that in less than a week-I expect.

We should try a 2 player game first-I want to make sure everyone can connect easily to my PC in 2 player mode first.

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poweraxe
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Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:49 pm

Sounds like a good idea. Let me know when you have the time for this.

I am aware of the time difference, but I do have some free time coming up, so I am sure we can work something out.

Nomadicjam
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Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:47 pm

If you plan to do a 4 player game eventually, I would like to join in This game is a lot of fun, and I would like to try an MP game sometime.


Huzzah! Reinforcements! :thumbsup:

The first time with Corporretto the game froze as my esteemed opponent decided to invade Austria on turn one.


...thats going down on the list of how not to do things. I wouldn't mind a rematch of Corporretto as the Italians again. I'm pretty sure I know what I did wrong... (Tell that to the 200,000 odd casualties I received under my 'Esteemed' Command) What a bloodbath!

Sounds like a good idea. Let me know when you have the time for this.

I am aware of the time difference, but I do have some free time coming up, so I am sure we can work something out.


I'm residing in England, so less of a time difference. Send me a pm at some point if you fancy trying a game.
Pity their isn't a three player scenario. Still, we can mix and match :)

Nomadicjam
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Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:21 pm

Let me know if your up for a game today chaps.

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poweraxe
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Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:24 pm

I'm up for a game this evening, send me a PM to let me know when you're on.

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Tamas
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Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:59 pm

I will keep a close eye on this thread. :) I would join you this evening but at this moment I am struggling with my dying router. Random losses of connections are everything but needed at this stage. :(
I will get a replacement router and see how far you people get in the meantime.

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Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:55 pm

That sounds good, Tamas. The four player effort stalled pretty quick the last time-maybe we will make it this time.

06 Maestro
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Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:45 pm

poweraxe wrote:I'm up for a game this evening, send me a PM to let me know when you're on.


If you guys see me online, let me know how you are making do.
Nomadicjam has my messenger info.

Nomadicjam
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Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:12 pm

Sorry chaps, entirely my fault I'm afraid. :o I wasn't expecting to go out on saturday. But then England beat France in the rugby :D and one thing led to another... :p arty:
So now I'm nursing a considerable hang-over. Even with that, I shall be online through the course of the day and if its convenient for anyone I'd like to try getting a game or two in.
Once again, apologies if I messed things up.

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poweraxe
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Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:18 pm

Don't worry about it. Meastro and I got a game going yesterday, though we didn't get very far into the game due to a bug in the battle screen(see attached screenshot).

In the 3 games we played, this happened every time(at least on my end), twice at the start of the 2nd battle and once at the start of the first battle. We are not sure what could the cause of this. I am going to perform a fresh install of the game, maybe this could help. After that I'll try another game soon.
Attachments
bug.jpg

Nomadicjam
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Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:16 pm

Hmm, Perhaps a fresh install might get rid of that. Seems similar to some buggy battle screens I had in the pre-gold version.

As for a game, do you fancy being host?

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poweraxe
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Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:38 pm

sure, I can host.

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calvinus
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Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:59 pm

poweraxe wrote:Don't worry about it. Meastro and I got a game going yesterday, though we didn't get very far into the game due to a bug in the battle screen(see attached screenshot).

In the 3 games we played, this happened every time(at least on my end), twice at the start of the 2nd battle and once at the start of the first battle. We are not sure what could the cause of this. I am going to perform a fresh install of the game, maybe this could help. After that I'll try another game soon.


Do you mean the battle screen always bugs in that manner in 4-players mode? If so, I will try to simulate the 4-players mode to reproduce the battle bug.

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Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:21 pm

calvinus wrote:Do you mean the battle screen always bugs in that manner in 4-players mode? If so, I will try to simulate the 4-players mode to reproduce the battle bug.


Nope, this happened, on his screen, during 2 way play. In my game the battle screen would open as normal, but his units did not appear for the fight-then he would send me a message of what he was seeing.

I don't think this is an MP issue-at least I have never seen that in any MP games. Actually, I don't recall having seen that since the initial release of WW1-like over two years ago.

There was either an issue with security/connectivity, or he has a bad install. That is my "take" on it anyway.

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poweraxe
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Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:32 pm

I am pleased to report that the bug I experienced before seems to have gone with a fresh reinstall. I've played 2 games(short scenarios, 2-way) today without encountering this bug again, which is a good sign. It's quite possible that a bad install was the cause of this error.

I'm up for more games the coming days if anyone's interested. :)

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Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:58 pm

Excellent. Poweraxe.

Nomadicjam
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Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:19 am

Good to see that bugs disappeared. Congratulations on your victory as well. You were obviously cheating. ;) hehe I jest, The field was clearly yours.

I am concerned that my game has crashed both times now during the beginning of the November/December turn during the Serbian scenario. It leads me to think thats more of a dodgy install than a gaming error. Certain things flicker in SP (I couldn't be any more specific at the moment) which causes my game to stutter but not crash. These occasions are less forgiving in MP.

Another occurrence also common in SP is armies moving into the same area and not fighting. This happened today as well.

Anyhoo, I shall look forward to a rematch over the coming days. :)

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calvinus
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Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:14 am

06 Maestro wrote:Nope, this happened, on his screen, during 2 way play. In my game the battle screen would open as normal, but his units did not appear for the fight-then he would send me a message of what he was seeing.

I don't think this is an MP issue-at least I have never seen that in any MP games. Actually, I don't recall having seen that since the initial release of WW1-like over two years ago.

There was either an issue with security/connectivity, or he has a bad install. That is my "take" on it anyway.


Indeed it happened during my tests in case of connection lost, or when the order of execution of movement orders was not synchronized. Then, this loss of synchronization of orders execution was fixed with 1.08L when I added the timestamp sort in all WW1 orders.

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calvinus
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Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:16 am

Anyway guys, I'm considering the opportunity of developing a simple PBEM game mode (minimal interface changes, PBEM allowed only in WEGO and with no interceptions, all battles resolved strictly by AI only)... This should help a lot the game, even if depriving it of some fundamental and funny features... What's your ideas? :neener:

Chris Ferrous
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Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:34 am

Having experienced my first two-player scenario last night (thanks, poweraxe) I must say that I was impressed how smooth it all went, once we finally got connected, although the load time was quite long.

Admittedly, it was 'only' the Tannenberg scenario but except for hanging for a few seconds (maybe 20) at the end of one battle it worked fine, so maybe the much requested pbem is less important than somehave suggested.

However, for Grand Campaigns I really do think pbem would help, otherwise the number of sessions needed even to finish a single year would really mount up and probably result in abandonment of the game by one player after another.

As for auto-resolution of battles by pbem, that may not be a bad idea. It would speed things up and allow players to concentrate on the grand strategy and politics.

What would help though, if it were possible, would be if a player could set a 'stance' preferably for an individual stack, or failing that an army, or at the very least a single front (and if even that is too much then just for that nation!) so that he still influences how the ai calculates the battle result.

These stances could be simply: 1. cautious = retreat at first possible attempt; 2. controlled = holds position (or maintains attack) until half of available units damaged or out of combat, and 3. aggressive = holds or continues to attack until forced to retire.

Otherwise, only the generals' ratings could influence how long the attacks last.

Definitely worth looking at pbem with auto-resolution of combat as far as I am concerned.

To all other interested multi-players - I too am interested in another online campaign. Just get in touch through this site.

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poweraxe
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Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:17 am

calvinus wrote:Anyway guys, I'm considering the opportunity of developing a simple PBEM game mode (minimal interface changes, PBEM allowed only in WEGO and with no interceptions, all battles resolved strictly by AI only)... This should help a lot the game, even if depriving it of some fundamental and funny features... What's your ideas? :neener:


Interesting thought. I think this could make the GC more playable in multiplayer for sure. Chris makes a good point however; if the battles are resolved by the AI, it is important that it knows when to retreat, within the rules of course(obstination, etc), because otherwise it could have devastating results in trench warfare. Though now that I think of it, I suppose that heavy casualties, especially in attack, are pretty realistic for this war.

(EDIT: my apologies Chris, I got your name mixed up with Nomadicjam's name :bonk :)

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