Mowers
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Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:13 pm

Random wrote:As for other nation's taking NW hits for bombardments, the Italian reaction to the Austrian naval bombardments of Ancona, Bari and Rimini was to cashier the Minister of Marine, an unlikely event if the public mood was unaffected.


Interesting, I don't remember the British sacking senior, leading even, members of the leadership after bombardments, yet they suffer -2 NW?

Random wrote:Move past Jutland when considering the naval war. For a mere three hours in a war lasting four and a half years the gun ruled on the afternoon of 31 May 1916 whereas the rest of the war at sea belonged to the submarine, destroyer and minesweeper supported by cruisers of various types. Time and again, destroyers hunted dreadnaughts and dreadnaughts would flee from destroyers; the Great War battleship ruled only in the popular imagination and on Internet forums. The ship-killing weapons were the torpedo and the mine.


Internet forum debates on who had the biggest inch guns and the big boys bumper picture book of big battleships make for "sexy war chat", and hey I'm just as guilty as the next wargamer, but as you say it simply doesnt reflect the reality. Currently the model protrays the ideal world of 1890s naval planners dreaming of trafalger combined with the internet dreamers of www.bigbattleshipchat.com of the 1990s. What it does not do is reflect reality.

Random wrote:I do agree that overall, WW1G is an excellent game and the support has been outstanding; fixing the counterfactual details in the naval war would definately improve its simulation value however.


Right.
You've put it far better than I have done.

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calvinus
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Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:29 am

rattlesnake wrote:Even if my NW is above 30.There comes the strike.The AI says it "reshuffle".
I don't know what it is and how to explain this phenomenon.


The strike was probably caused by an event, so no direct link to NW.

"Reshuffle" is then another event that remixes all even cards deck.

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Tamas
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Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:05 am

Mowers wrote:Except historically they did have a choice, and that's exactly what they did, they choose NOT to fight the German navy except when they were absolutely sure they had the upper hand after a German screw up. The exact opposite to what you are saying.

Instead they laid tens of thousands of mines.


If the Germany Navy was to move out and roam the North Sea en force (ie. Control mission in the game) the Royal Navy would had been there to oppose them, and take decisive battle (the whole "being able to lose the war in an afternoon" thing)

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:47 am

Tamas wrote:If the Germany Navy was to move out and roam the North Sea en force (ie. Control mission in the game) the Royal Navy would had been there to oppose them, and take decisive battle (the whole "being able to lose the war in an afternoon" thing)


I'm not entirely sure of your point here, so i hope i have answered it.

The British Navy strategic plan was called the far blockade, not the close blockade but the far blockade. It was far because they had a strategic risk (as you point out) to any challenge to the status quo and because of the threat of modern technology. To win all they had to do was maintain the status quo. They didnt even need to leave harbour unless, as you point out the Germans seriously tried to challenge control, which they never did. So they only ever left harbour for training, "running in ops", and to chase raiders and to support their minesweeping fleets. They didnt just roam up and down for years on end, thank fully the model partially reflects this.

Note, what would German control in Real life mean? Would it mean driving up and down in the north sea? no. It would have meant breaking out of the North sea, the freedom to move out of the north sea. The British didn't attempt to really control the whole North sea, they simply didnt need to. they just needed to stop commercial ships entering or leaving it.

The British naval command knew, after the lessons of the 1st phase of the Russo-Japanese war and from the early lessons of WW1 that mines and torpedoes were extremely dangerous. So, the far blockade was based on 2 very large minefields blocking the Germans in. Then the British only had to sit back and wait.

Thus you can already see some of the problems with the model.
The two keys elements of the war, strategic submarine warfare and mine warfare are highly abstractly modelled, whilst the capital battleship model which played a relatively minor part in the war is highly modelled. It's an easy trap to fall into, mines and torpedoes do not have the glamour of 16" guns, but if you are going to attempt to model WW1 naval aspects you need to do so on reality rather than glamour.

The model is currently the way a naval planner in 1890 would have designed such a naval model, but not the way a British naval staff commander in 1919 would have designed such a naval model.

Is there much we can do about this at this stage? Well, on the downside its a flawed concept model. And, yes, the main game remains incomplete so that needs to be taken into consideration. But changes can be made within the existing model.

My main suggestion is that the raiding model effect is made accurate by a change to NW so that the utility of fleets ther than the Germans and the Brits is historically based on reality.

My second, longer term, suggestion is that mines are re-examined. Thirdly, and this really does need to take a back seat due to other game problems, is that the submarine model needs to be re-examined.

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Tamas
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Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:41 am

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this.

British and as such Entente naval supremacy was a given in that world, so it is correct in the frame of the game that only the UK receives NW penalty for being raided. IMHO.

Regarding mines, I will need to re-read the rules on them, but their part in the blockade is represented by the blockade rules, so not sure on them either.

The submarine warfare affects British NW and economy, the more subs there are and less escorts the more chance for efficiency, plus it depends on wether its restricted or unrestricted sub-warfare. Not really should how else this should be handled.

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:53 am

Tamas wrote:I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this.

British and as such Entente naval supremacy was a given in that world, so it is correct in the frame of the game that only the UK receives NW penalty for being raided. IMHO.

Regarding mines, I will need to re-read the rules on them, but their part in the blockade is represented by the blockade rules, so not sure on them either.

The submarine warfare affects British NW and economy, the more subs there are and less escorts the more chance for efficiency, plus it depends on wether its restricted or unrestricted sub-warfare. Not really should how else this should be handled.


Hey,

Disagree on what precisely? I am unsure what it is that you are disagreeing with. Are you saying that model is accurate within the parameters and the confines of the design model? Because that isn't logical.

That if st.petersburg was entirely destroyed there would be no NW effect on Russia? But if 50 shells fall on scarborough there ought to be a -2 NW effect? Are you saying that is logical?

This is the problem, no one who disagrees is really prepared to answer or really debate the question. If I am wrong then by all means explain why the Italians, Russians, Turks and AH fleets ever left harbour and why under the current model would you do so? What are the benefits And why did these navies leave harbour so often historically? And why would the levelling of constantinople have no effect on NW? And why, if it wasnt important to NW did the Italians sack their minister for the naval?

I am not sure how to better sub warfare better either, I havn't given it much thought myself. But I can see that this model has not been designed properly with real thought to the true strategic challenges of WW1. Its a big gun tactical simulator in a strategic level game with a very abstract coverage of the real strategic naval war.

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calvinus
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Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:24 am

Here a post by Philippe:

PhilThib wrote:We shall study all this and fix any errors, with the three points below:

1) make fleets take refuge when damaged

2) make more chances to have a fire range small or medium in battles where only S or M units are present

3) add/modify NW side effects on raids

Nevertheless, a few remarks on the naval game module (which is an adaptation of the boardgame, and not a detailed/faithfull representation of WW1 naval warfare - if it could ever be done!)

* The German navy has a slight technical edge over the RN. This was in the boardgame and based on historical data (e.g. defective British shells, wrong conception in the armor belts of British BCs, better German fire control and damage control, etc..). This is not decisive though (see next)
* Important numerical advantage of the RN which is just growing larger during the war (and becomes huge when the USN joins)...unless of course the British player/AI does no battleship building and its opponent does a large effort on same
* In battle, based on the above, the Germans will score slightly better than the British and withstand more punishment, but will probably lose the battle on sheer numbers...this is more or less Dogger Bank 1915 and Jutland 1916 effects...
* The British have a slight intelligence head over the Germans (the Naval Code bonus) and should be able to avoid being trapped except in case of bad luck.
* The German main navy is handicaped by the 'Kaiser' rule which prevent automatic and systematic sortie early on, making contest of North Sea not something easy to achieve... if it happens too often in the game, some tweaking will be neede there..

Now the emotional part in the game can be important, and luck too ;) : if the RN get trapped in detail (which almost happened in real history during the Hartlepool raid), it may suffer a severe defeat. But it could work the other way round too...

:cool:

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:26 pm

For what it's worth I love battleships and always have only now I see them for the badly flawed and fundimentally useless weapons systems that they effectively became after Tsu Shima in 1905 (or perhaps the Falklands in 1914).

Great credit to Phillipe, Calvinus and the WW1G developers for revisiting some the naval issues with the game. Thank you very much Gentlemen.

Tamas wrote:If the Germany Navy was to move out and roam the North Sea en force (ie. Control mission in the game) the Royal Navy would had been there to oppose them, and take decisive battle (the whole "being able to lose the war in an afternoon" thing)


Winston Churchill was above all a politician with a politician's sense of hyperbole and a weather eye constantly on how history would portray him and his "... lose the war in an afternoon." statement is a fine example of that in my opinion.

As far as I know nobody, no naval writers, theorists or talking-heads who have repeated the phrase endlessly as though it is a sacred mantra have ever actually analysed how this would actually happen. Worst case in the actual event was the potential loss of the BCF and the 2nd Battle Squadron during the Scarborough operations in December 1914. If all four of Beattie's battlecruisers and all six of Jerram's "super-dreadnaughts" were lost the RN instantly becomes the inferior force (counting capital ships only) in the North Sea but the strategic situation is entirely unchanged!

The Kaiser's battleships lack the endurance to operate in the Atlantic and a surface blockade of the British Isles from the West would be technologically impossible to impose with surface ships. There was no RAS in those days, no forward bases for the HSF to coal and at least two maritime choke points for the German surface forces to transit to establish their blockade of Britain's West Coast. Choke points where very angry RN light forces and submarines armed with ship-killing torpedoes would be lurking to extract revenge for their loss. Also cruiser warfare could never be decisive and a division of pre-dreadnaughts (which the RN had lots to spare) would deter any raider for attacking the resulting convoys.

For you have to know that convoying would have become immediate in the face of a percieved threat by major surface units. The attitude of the RN to convoying is widely misconstrued, convoys had been introduced immediately on the declaration of war wherever a percieved surface threat existed.

The RN's resistance to convoying merchant ships in the open Atlantic and the Med against the U-Boat threat was because there were no effective counter-measures and it was widely believed that a single submarine could make multiple attacks so convoying made the U-Boat's hunting easier. That they were entirely wrong may be accurate in hindsight but given the RN's experiance of the Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue disaster and the multiple losses to U-Boats off the Dardenelles the argument seemed reasonable at the time.

Meanwhile the AMC's of the RN's 10th Cruiser Squadron continue to patrol the GIUK Gap preventing merchant traffic from reaching Germany as though nothing happened.

In short, nothing the Kaiser's surface fleet could do would ever knock Britain out of the war unless the country decided to cut its losses and quit. This would be a political decision and hardly the Commander Grand Fleet's responsibility so Churchill's oft-repeated remark is pure hype, written for dramatic effect and not a reasoned analysis. In the 19th Century, leaving a coalition after a major defeat was a common occurance but with so much blood, treasure and prestige tied up in the Great War, how realistic would a total collapse of Empire will to fight really be.

With all the variables built into the NW engine, I suspect that the game models the prospects of this sort of thing pretty well.

By 1914 the decisive naval battle was a chimera, an illusion that had ceased to have any relevence to the actual naval situation that had developed due to the advent of the submarine, the mine and the locomotive torpedo. Look past the battleship hype and examine what really happened and why it did.

I'll shut up now.

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:58 pm

calvinus wrote:Here a post by Philippe:

Originally Posted by PhilThib View Post
We shall study all this and fix any errors, with the three points below:

1) make fleets take refuge when damaged

2) make more chances to have a fire range small or medium in battles where only S or M units are present

3) add/modify NW side effects on raids

Nevertheless, a few remarks on the naval game module (which is an adaptation of the boardgame, and not a detailed/faithfull representation of WW1 naval warfare - if it could ever be done!)



Hurrah

All three points are great news for the game; thanks for the update. I look forward to laying walls of mines to deter any potential raiders.

One can only design a boardgame model within the parameters one set's one's self; otherwise its either unplayable by all except for students or commercially unviable. Striking the the balance between playability, historic representation and fun will always remain a challenging process in which refining and testing are often an unending cycle.

Mowers

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:04 pm

I already developed and tested points #1 and #2.

In particular, for point #2:
- when a naval combat takes place in coastal seas, the initial fire range setup is always set to the required range to have your forces committed
- when a naval combat takes place in open seas, the initial fire range setup has a 50% chances for having it set to the required range (die roll greater than 3, +1 for every year from 1915+).

For point #3: I will set a -1 NW for each naval raid against France, Russia and Italy. For Turkey and Austria-Hungary, a -1 NW only the first time a naval raid takes place!

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:09 pm

calvinus wrote:I already developed and tested points #1 and #2.

In particular, for point #2:
- when a naval combat takes place in coastal seas, the initial fire range setup is always set to the required range to have your forces committed
- when a naval combat takes place in open seas, the initial fire range setup has a 50% chances for having it set to the required range (die roll greater than 3, +1 for every year from 1915+).

For point #3: I will set a -1 NW for each naval raid against France, Russia and Italy. For Turkey and Austria-Hungary, a -1 NW only the first time a naval raid takes place!

This helps, thanks!

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:18 pm

calvinus wrote:I already developed and tested points #1 and #2.

In particular, for point #2:
- when a naval combat takes place in coastal seas, the initial fire range setup is always set to the required range to have your forces committed
- when a naval combat takes place in open seas, the initial fire range setup has a 50% chances for having it set to the required range (die roll greater than 3, +1 for every year from 1915+).

For point #3: I will set a -1 NW for each naval raid against France, Russia and Italy. For Turkey and Austria-Hungary, a -1 NW only the first time a naval raid takes place!


Nice work calvinus, this is really great.

I think you said before, so sorry for asking again, but its not possible to put in a % chance of a NW loss being used instead ?

A knock on concern is that if raiding comes viable perhaps the stock of available buildable minefields to the countries concerned may need to be increased?

Now, back to digging through the model. My current game as Germany is pretty good. The AI still does the odd 1 inf attack (but so do I....) and places reinforcements in cut off areas but I know you are aware of both those issues. So if there are any other areas you need examining let me know otherwise I will keep churning through the game looking for stuff.

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:40 pm

Mowers wrote:I think you said before, so sorry for asking again, but its not possible to put in a % chance of a NW loss being used instead ?


I will try.

I forgot to mention the rule will be also for Germany (-1 NW).

Mowers wrote:Now, back to digging through the model. My current game as Germany is pretty good. The AI still does the odd 1 inf attack (but so do I....) and places reinforcements in cut off areas but I know you are aware of both those issues. So if there are any other areas you need examining let me know otherwise I will keep churning through the game looking for stuff.


Under the 1.08I under development, I'm having some improvements on this side. I still get a few AI attacks with small forces, but I'm also attacked by the AI with large forces, mainly during enemy Grand Offensives.

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:47 pm

Sorry for asking, do you have an ETA for the 1.08i patch ? I am considering starting finally a proper Grand Campaign this week... :D

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:49 pm

I'll do my best to deliver the 1.08I within 2-3 days. The purpose is to deliver a new official patch, so I need to test it carefully.

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:54 pm

calvinus wrote:I'll do my best to deliver the 1.08I within 2-3 days. The purpose is to deliver a new official patch, so I need to test it carefully.


Thanks :thumbsup: :coeurs: :coeurs:

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:56 pm

Mowers wrote:I think you said before, so sorry for asking again, but its not possible to put in a % chance of a NW loss being used instead ?


Ok, added.

The rule will be:

Great Britain : -2 NW for each naval raid
Germany : -1 NW for each naval raid (50% chances : die roll > 3)
Austria-Hungary : -2 NW for the first naval raid only
Turkey : -1 NW for the first naval raid only
France : -1 NW for each naval raid
Russia : -1 NW for each naval raid (50% chances : die roll > 3)
Italy : -1 NW for each naval raid (50% chances : die roll > 3)

Do you like it?

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:39 pm

calvinus wrote:Ok, added.

The rule will be:

Great Britain : -2 NW for each naval raid
Germany : -1 NW for each naval raid (50% chances : die roll > 3)
Austria-Hungary : -2 NW for the first naval raid only
Turkey : -1 NW for the first naval raid only
France : -1 NW for each naval raid
Russia : -1 NW for each naval raid (50% chances : die roll > 3)
Italy : -1 NW for each naval raid (50% chances : die roll > 3)

Do you like it?


Well, yes, its a great improvement and it is what I am asking for. So yep, I am obviously pleased as I feel its a very positive step in the improvement of the naval game and will make the game more fun and historic. Thank you.


Great Britain : -2 NW for each naval raid


Agreed. GB public appears to have had a specific cultural vulnerability to homeland attack due to a national belief in being on an invulnerable island.

(One concern I might have is if Japan joined the central powers, could it just raid HK, Singapore and Australia endlessly for -2 NW a turn? Or would it need to raid a home territory of the UK? My question would be how could the UK knock out Japan? Perhaps Japan needs to have a special vulnerability to raiding as they are not vulnerable to blockade? Or, additionally or alternatively, add a nasty blockade rule against Japan if they do not control the asian sea zone? )

Germany : -1 NW for each naval raid (50% chances : die roll > 3)

Agreed, its arguably considerably less vulnerable than the UK but this forces it to at least monitor the Russian fleet and place mines to deter the UK and Russian adventurism.

Austria-Hungary : -2 NW for the first naval raid only

AH is argueably less vulnerable to naval raiding than other countries but it can easily defend its self with high mine concentrations. What is your thought here in making it -2 to the first time rather than say -1 with 20% chances? It's not that I disagree rather that I am interested in how you came to this conclusion.

Turkey : -1 NW for the first naval raid only

Turkey is arguably much easier to raid than AH and that could be unrealistically exploited so I see why the first naval raid only reasoning. I think we might need to try it out but as it stands I don't see why this is incorrect.

France : -1 NW for each naval raid

I would agree with this, France is definitely vulnerable to raiding.

Russia : -1 NW for each naval raid (50% chances : die roll > 3)

Agreed. Russia is vulnerable but at the same time it can easily defend its self with layers of mines in a way that Turkey can't (might be worth checking taht Russia has enough mines that it can build to fully deter Germany)

Italy : -1 NW for each naval raid (50% chances : die roll > 3)

Agreed. Italy was vulnerable to raiding with a great many key coastal industrial areas.


I think it would be useful to have some other people's opinions on various respective states vulnerability to naval raids and any potential flaws in some of the thinking here with a specific thought to MP game. This isn't the most scientific of thought processes by me here :)

Finally, I think this may require some testing to get the balance just right but that probably goes without saying

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Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:01 pm

Random wrote:
In short, nothing the Kaiser's surface fleet could do would ever knock Britain out of the war unless the country decided to cut its losses and quit. This would be a political decision and hardly the Commander Grand Fleet's responsibility so Churchill's oft-repeated remark is pure hype, written for dramatic effect and not a reasoned analysis.
.


imho if somehow the kaisers battle fleet managed to decimate the RN's battle fleet without itself being decimated, then the kaisers fleet and army could at least threaten britain with invasion.

without the shield of the RN battle fleet the british would be forced to keep large numbers of troops in britain. this alone would most likely eventually doom the allied war effort.

imo its immaterial whether the germans could actually have pulled off an invasion. the mere threat of one would of sufficed to cripple britains participation in the struggle on the continent.

perhaps Churchill was thinking about something along these lines.

this subject would be fascinating to discuss further. in its own thread of course.

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