comagoosie
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Where oh where are the combat rolls?

Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:21 pm

One thing that has particulary bugged me is that in combat, there are random rolls that determine luck and chance, but they are never displayed!

I can see the battle round displayed but nothing indicated if I rolled a high number. I just hate it when a weak unit on the attack beats my elite unit in the moutains without explaination. :bonk:

I know that these rolls are modified by generals and fire values but maybe if there was an indicator of the original roll and then the modified value would be great!

Or maybe I am just blind and they are displayed? :blink:

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PhilThib
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Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:22 pm

There are very few games that show "die rolls"...at least none of ours ;)
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comagoosie
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Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:37 pm

PhilThib wrote:There are very few games that show "die rolls"...at least none of ours ;)

I think I have been confused evermore...

This statement in the manual is the cause of all the confusion.
The Manual wrote:Combat is then solved by random rolls, but each roll in each round can be influenced by 2 important modifiers:

So I am correct in saying that there are die rolls but they are not displayed. Just curious. After EU3 I feel like I always need an explaination of why I lost a battle that I should have won :D

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Rafiki
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Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:44 pm

WW1 is a pretty direct conversion of the boardgame "La Grande Guerre", and much of the underlying mechanics have been kept, even if they have been "pushed under the hood", so to speak :)
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AndrewKurtz
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Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:26 pm

comagoosie wrote:I think I have been confused evermore...

This statement in the manual is the cause of all the confusion.

So I am correct in saying that there are die rolls but they are not displayed. Just curious. After EU3 I feel like I always need an explaination of why I lost a battle that I should have won :D


I don't think Philippe said there were no die rolls. I think he said AGEOD games don't SHOW die rolls. ;)

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PhilThib
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Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:44 pm

Exact, we do not display the rolls (only the final result is applied, after all modifiers checked and implemented) ;)
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tagwyn
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Dice Rolls?

Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:10 pm

Isn't this one reason to play computerized games? :p apy:

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soundoff
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Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:59 pm

tagwyn wrote:Isn't this one reason to play computerized games? :p apy:


For me +1 Tagwyn. Mind you there are some who want to know the ins and outs of a ducks backside (excuse my language) as to how a game works, even within AGEOD games.

Playing the devils advocate (which I'm extremely proficient at) it could be said that if you played the boardgame you would know what the dice rolls were....I've never played the boardgame but I assume there were dice rolls in it.

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bjfagan
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Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:40 pm

Would it at least be possible to show who won a battle? Also, would it be possible to show who is attacking and who is defending? Both of these are not clearly defined and the combat round results (ie shaken, disorganized, out of combat) are spread around the screen and overlap that it is very hard to figure out what is going on.

The little markers that pop up to show who won a flank battle, don't always appear, so it is difficult to know for sure who actually won a battle.

I suggest and plead for the Attacker and Defender to be clearly indicated on the battle screen, that a clearly marked section on the battle screen be used for the combat round results to appear in and on the end of battle screen that pops up to show who won. :love:

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Tamas
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Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:16 pm

Winner is shown by the crossed swords: for the winner, they point upward :D

Also, the defender is shown by that half-round blue "wall" thingie and the red arrow.

Also, I remember that on the release of EU3, there was a HUGE uproar for having dice rolls shown during battle resolution. Uprising was so fierce, that Paradox removed those. :)

I am fine with either way.

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Nial
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Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:31 pm

Im am not concerned either way. Though I would like an indication/ explanation of why my army retreats on it's own when I still have unwounded/ fresh units to move up. I assume it is a moral issue. But it's frustrating to not get some sort of indication of why a almost totaly healthy army decided to run away.

Also would be nice to have better all around messages about what happens to units. I see when it says shaken or disorganized. But I have to wait till the battles over to find out if any units have been destroyed. Not sure what all the symbols are, so maybe it's reflected in those.

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comagoosie
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Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:14 pm

Thanks for the reasoning everyone! :thumbsup:

Though, just to put it out there, I wouldn't mind if there ever was a mod to show the unmodified die roll to quench my insatiable thirst for statistic :)

Oh and another thing, I was feeling what bjfagan was feeling for the first three hours of gameplay, so you aren't alone!

PoorBoy2001
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Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:12 am

I'd sure like to at least have the option to see the dice rolls, or have them logged somewhere. LGG combat is fairly detailed and I've long suspected there is something inaccurate in many of the results. Just way too many destroyed units and unusual combat results have been encountered. Currently, we have no way to test this out.

Garrett

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calvinus
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Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:41 am

Next week I will finally start working on the Combat Logs, where you will see all die rolls (modificators too)... ;)

Hanno
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A detailed Combat report ist a must

Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:18 pm

I also have the boardgame and I think a detailed combat report is a must for all users (especially if you want to play well)

I think it would be very interesting for all to see the final combat odds with all modifiers to help planning the next battle. I would also include the die roll and the combat result and later morale check.

like for example:
German 6-7-4 plus German Arty support (+2 in 1914) = 8-9-4
vs.
French 4-5-4
+ 1 defense in plain during rain 4-6-4
=> Combat on the +2 columm

D12 die roll modifiers:
+3 German firepower
-1 French firepower
-1 French General with 1 defensive star
=> Combat with a +1 on the die roll

Combat die roll 10 modified to 11 on the +2 columm gives
attacker 0 / defender M

lossess...
morale check modifiers...

To include this would be great, I think.

Regards, Hanno

Hanno
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Combat logs

Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:21 pm

Hello Calvinus,

please do not consider only combat logs, but detailed combat results on screen to be viewed during combat to make intelligent decisions while playing the game.

Thanks, Hanno

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calvinus
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Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:51 pm

Ok Hanno, I will try to put as most stuff as possible! ;)

Btw, in 1.05d (incoming) I have fixed three of nasty bugs in land combats: -

- Land battles: critical retreat is not considered anymore as a mandatory retreat, so it does not cause anymore the defeat
- Land battles: fixed bug in morale checks that caused sometimes a panic result for units suffering a 2-losses combat result, even if at full strenght
- Land battles: fixed bug in morale checks that caused shaken units being sometimes not reduced

:thumbsup:

tagwyn
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More Data?

Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:25 pm

Cal: I can't cope with the data now available!! I attack at favorable odds and I lose - that is war my man! Who would have thought France could have stopped the German offensive at Verdun; or the first attack on Paris? Certainly not the "data conscious" Hun general staff? What stopped them was the blood and determination of the French Army. Look at Tuchman"s Guns of 1914! t

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Rafiki
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Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:29 pm

Tagwyn, that data is available doesn't mean you have to make note of it if you don't like :)
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tagwyn
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Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:40 pm

Arne: Certainly that is the case that one does not have to notice all available data. However, I still find the proliferation of unnecessary date to be daunting. Best, t

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Rafiki
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Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:42 pm

In this case, however, there are quite a few who say that they would very much like this data, for various reasons, so I disagree with your labelling it "unnecessary" ;)

I'm sure, though, that Calvinus will be able to do this in a way that makes everyone happy, bith those who care and don't care about this information :)
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comagoosie
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Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:09 pm

calvinus wrote:Next week I will finally start working on the Combat Logs, where you will see all die rolls (modificators too)... ;)

I think I have just fainted...

*regains composure*

Now I have more incentive to buy the game now, the demo days are running offly low and my birthday is seemingly getting farther and farther away :D

Thanks for your support!

Mr Bill
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Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:55 pm

calvinus wrote:Next week I will finally start working on the Combat Logs, where you will see all die rolls (modificators too)... ;)


Awesome! :w00t:

I'm glad the combat rolls will be able to be displayed too! I don't mind having some parts of the game be a total black box, but I do like to know why/how things happen in combat. :)

As a math geek, I eat stats for breakfast (this is not recommended by the FDA, however :bonk :) .

tagwyn
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Combat

Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:36 am

In combat, in real life, things are not determined by die rolls. If you have taken all "necessary" steps as the player, how the dice rolled is ... how things happen. Arne: Do think I am a "blabbering fool??" t

comagoosie
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Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:52 am

tagwyn wrote:In combat, in real life, things are not determined by die rolls. If you have taken all "necessary" steps as the player, how the dice rolled is ... how things happen. Arne: Do think I am a "blabbering fool??" t

Things are determined by chance, no?

In my opinion, those die rolls simulate chance. And I would love to know if I rolled a high number and the enemy rolled a low number. I could say I ambushed them, or such, and it could really make a great addition to AARing :thumbsup:

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Nial
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Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:59 am

tagwyn wrote:In combat, in real life, things are not determined by die rolls. If you have taken all "necessary" steps as the player, how the dice rolled is ... how things happen. Arne: Do think I am a "blabbering fool??" t


I don't see the issue T. No one will force you to use the logs. It's purely voluntary. I figure it's a win, win. Those who want to use it will. Those that could care less wont.

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Syt
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Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:09 pm

Besides, knowing how the dice fell helps you little, because you can't influence it beforehand. You may still attack/defend somewhere and win/lose despite all odds without being able to do something against it.

I regard seeing how the dice fell (i.e. in hindsight) as an AAR as the OHL or GHQ might get ("Due to strong resistence we were repelled despite numerical and material advantages").
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vonRocko
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Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:04 am

Why don't we wait till the game is playable before worrying about die rolls. What good is knowing the die rolls when the results aren't functioning correctly anyhow?

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Rafiki
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Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:06 am

Well, for one thing, having more info about what is going on under the hood will make it easier to pinpoint any and all things that aren't working the way they should :)
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PoorBoy2001
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Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:18 am

Thanks Calvinus - I look forward to the combat logging feature. The ability to access it from within the game would be nice.

I suspect the panic result on "2" results for full strength units is a big reason we are seeing a lot of destroyed units.

For info of those not familiar with LGG, panic results for one unit cause other units in the same combat to make morale checks, which can bring defeat in a hurry.

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