I am getting a great deal of enjoyment from this game, but there seems so much I still have to learn. NW is a case in point. As the Etente the war has been going very well. The glorious French armies are sweeping aside the Germans on the Western Front and the GB navy has just won a great victory. The NW of the Allies is high - in the case of France, by the Spring interphase of 1915 it is at 34.
I undertake event and political actions which have the effect of further boosting NW. Nothing is notified which would have an adverse effect on my morale. However in the next turn I see that the French NW has plummeted down to 20. What could have caused such a reverse?
Bern
The problem here is that so many things could have caused it, that its really hard to say.
Could be a bug, perhaps a minus sign at the wrong place in the criss-cross which is resolving NW stuff during the Interphase.
If it is not a bug, then it must be several factors together. What is your production level, and mood of parlaiment? Plus there are the lost major battles, captured cities at allies and such.
Perhaps Calvinus could use your saved game. I could also take a look on the game, but I have no means to see more than you do.
Could be a bug, perhaps a minus sign at the wrong place in the criss-cross which is resolving NW stuff during the Interphase.
If it is not a bug, then it must be several factors together. What is your production level, and mood of parlaiment? Plus there are the lost major battles, captured cities at allies and such.
Perhaps Calvinus could use your saved game. I could also take a look on the game, but I have no means to see more than you do.
Thanks very much. I tend not to save games - I know I should but I get caught up in the play and just plough on. I have to believe this is a bug somewhere - all levels are good and the Entente is winning battles on all fronts taking and not losing any cities.
As I've said in a previous post, I think there are a number of bugs lurking around in the calculations relating to not only NW but also to battles, events and Diplomacy. A number of calculations appear to be resolved in a way opposite to what can be expected. I think there have been a number of examples in recent posts.
I'll try to learn a lesson and save games after each phase.
Bern
As I've said in a previous post, I think there are a number of bugs lurking around in the calculations relating to not only NW but also to battles, events and Diplomacy. A number of calculations appear to be resolved in a way opposite to what can be expected. I think there have been a number of examples in recent posts.
I'll try to learn a lesson and save games after each phase.
Bern
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Bern
As others have pointed out, there are many things, battles, events, lost/regained cities, and political actions that could have easily have caused this. Perhaps the most drastic change is brought about by losing major battles-these cost three NW points each. What might come as a surprise to some is that the effects of losing a major battle or city cost everyone in an alliance the same amount-3 points.
Even if your primary country is doing well, you can easily lose 15 points of NW due to some negative outcomes of battle from an ally or two. If two major battles are lost along with two major cities; you have just lost 12 NW points. Add in a couple more points for your own combat casualties and you're up to 14 points. It is not unusual.
What goes down can come back up just as quick-or quicker. Just wait until you've got the enemy horde "on the ropes" with a NW of minus 6 and suddenly they are back up to 28-forming a new government can do wonders.
In time, I think these NW affects will need to be tweaked a little. At this point, I see no reason for a battle lost by Russia having the same debilitating effect on France as on Russia. Some loss of NW by allies is in order, but not the same amount IMO.
As others have pointed out, there are many things, battles, events, lost/regained cities, and political actions that could have easily have caused this. Perhaps the most drastic change is brought about by losing major battles-these cost three NW points each. What might come as a surprise to some is that the effects of losing a major battle or city cost everyone in an alliance the same amount-3 points.
Even if your primary country is doing well, you can easily lose 15 points of NW due to some negative outcomes of battle from an ally or two. If two major battles are lost along with two major cities; you have just lost 12 NW points. Add in a couple more points for your own combat casualties and you're up to 14 points. It is not unusual.
What goes down can come back up just as quick-or quicker. Just wait until you've got the enemy horde "on the ropes" with a NW of minus 6 and suddenly they are back up to 28-forming a new government can do wonders.
In time, I think these NW affects will need to be tweaked a little. At this point, I see no reason for a battle lost by Russia having the same debilitating effect on France as on Russia. Some loss of NW by allies is in order, but not the same amount IMO.
I agree absolutely with your point about battle losses affecting equally all allied countries. Hopefully this will be tweaked.
In the case I mentioned, none of the in-game circumstances you mention were present - quite the reverse, in fact, in respect of all Entente countries. I was really wondering if something could happen which is not notified as per usual. As this is not the case, I do believe that there is a problem somewhere in the NW calculation.
I'll keep an eye on this. Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to play for a while - awful family event (imminent appearance of yet another great grandchild) will doubtless be claiming my attention
.
Bern
In the case I mentioned, none of the in-game circumstances you mention were present - quite the reverse, in fact, in respect of all Entente countries. I was really wondering if something could happen which is not notified as per usual. As this is not the case, I do believe that there is a problem somewhere in the NW calculation.
I'll keep an eye on this. Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to play for a while - awful family event (imminent appearance of yet another great grandchild) will doubtless be claiming my attention
.
Bern
Agreed, maybe a small loss for the allies that were not on the same front. Versus an equal loss. Also we are not talking about a war fought in the midst of modern media. By the time the news of a battle on the Russian front reached the populace of France or England? Your goverment could have done some serious tweaking to the real figures. Prolly a little harder to do on the western front. France and England should take the same if not close to the same NW hit, and Russia would take the lesser NW hit. Might be a bit problematic for Germany since they are fighting on both fronts.
Nial
Nial
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Maybe. But if I remember correctly, you need to lose 3 or 4 units in a battle to make it a major defeat.
That's like an army or two! We are talking about the immediate French failures in '14, Tannenberg, Gorlice, the Brusilov Offensive, Caporetto. Maybe you can argue that most of Russia was not fully aware of the extent of initial French failures, but thats more of the exception than the rule.
I am pretty sure Hungarians were very relieved to hear the Russian disaster at Tannenberg, while the French worried seeing the cossack march on Berlin collapse, or at least come to a halt.
That's like an army or two! We are talking about the immediate French failures in '14, Tannenberg, Gorlice, the Brusilov Offensive, Caporetto. Maybe you can argue that most of Russia was not fully aware of the extent of initial French failures, but thats more of the exception than the rule.
I am pretty sure Hungarians were very relieved to hear the Russian disaster at Tannenberg, while the French worried seeing the cossack march on Berlin collapse, or at least come to a halt.
Tamas wrote:Maybe. But if I remember correctly, you need to lose 3 or 4 units in a battle to make it a major defeat.
That's like an army or two! We are talking about the immediate French failures in '14, Tannenberg, Gorlice, the Brusilov Offensive, Caporetto. Maybe you can argue that most of Russia was not fully aware of the extent of initial French failures, but thats more of the exception than the rule.
I am pretty sure Hungarians were very relieved to hear the Russian disaster at Tannenberg, while the French worried seeing the cossack march on Berlin collapse, or at least come to a halt.
True, but are we talking about the government/ establishments reaction? Or the populace? Which does NW reflect? I assumed it was the populace. Much of the war reporting prior to Vietnam was strictly controled by governments. Even free press goverments did their best to put pressure on newspapers to tone down the bad news from the front. While the news would and did come out. It was not always known by the populace how bad the situation was until later. Sometimes much later.
Nial
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Nial wrote:True, but are we talking about the government/ establishments reaction? Or the populace? Which does NW reflect? I assumed it was the populace. Much of the war reporting prior to Vietnam was strictly controled by governments. Even free press goverments did their best to put pressure on newspapers to tone down the bad news from the front. While the news would and did come out. It was not always known by the populace how bad the situation was until later. Sometimes much later.
Nial
Agree completely. Given that NW is a key ingredient in determining victory, it is quite important that anything connected to its determination etc is correct. I've had another read of the draft rules, whilst recalling the events that I initially wrote about.
Tamas is right, you need to lose 4 or more units afore you take a hit. The AI Germans lost four; an AI AH HQ was isolated; the French captured a star city; three enemy regions were captured; GB won a naval battle. In addition there was some politicking which also boosted NW - or should have.
The net result of all of that was the 14 point deduction - this cant be right.
Bern
I did some research this afternoon on this and can provide some dissertations and discriptions n what both the American and British Governments did to propagandize the war.Both prior and during.
As a quick example: The British goverment only allowed two Lt.s access to the front to take pictures. All their photo's were reviewed before publishing. They made it a crime for anyone else to take pictures of the front. While some did get out. They were quickly squashed.
This is just one example. These are rather large documents, but I will post them if anyone is interested.
Nial
As a quick example: The British goverment only allowed two Lt.s access to the front to take pictures. All their photo's were reviewed before publishing. They made it a crime for anyone else to take pictures of the front. While some did get out. They were quickly squashed.
This is just one example. These are rather large documents, but I will post them if anyone is interested.
Nial
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calvinus wrote:Ok, just to help me, can you make a summary of NW issues that require checking and fixes...
In the absence of a save game, and I really do regret not having one to show you, so far as I am concerned, the problem seems to be in the manner in which the NW calculations are resolved. What seems to have happened in the case I brought forward is that a number of factors which should have brought an increase in the NW of the Etente, have actually produced a significant deficit.
Maybe this happened because there were multiple plus factors accrued during the game turn - is it possible that a little minus could have sneaked in? I know this is terribly unhelpful and that for my sin I should be instructed to review, line by line, the relevant calculation sub-routine but I can say no more.
Bern
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