Naval Questions & Comments

[aglozier]

I have been trying out the demo and I found the naval part of the game to be confusing. To try to understand it further I read the original board game rules. Based on my observations of the game and the manuals I have some questions and comments.

The board game has a separate naval phase that took place before the military phase. Hidden written naval orders are used. This is in effect a WEGO system. Sea control can change during the phase. This could affect the following military by blocking sea supply and transport.

The computer game lacks a separate naval phase and naval is part of the military phase. Thus it appears that it is not possible for changes in sea control to affect the land battle. In addition, if the game is played ‘turn-based’, naval movement is no longer WEGO. In my opinion the game should have a separate WEGO naval phase.

The manual mentions the Kaiser Wilhelm II “Luxus” Fleet rule. In my limited testing I haven’t seen any indication that this is implemented in the game. There was no message of any secret die roll result and I was able to move the High Seas fleet. Prior to naval movement, there should be a pop-up message stating the Kaisers decision.

The manual states that a successful sea control mission changes control for one turn. How long is this? Is it until the end of the current turn or is it until the end of next turn’s naval movement?

It is unclear what is supposed to happen to fleets left at sea after the turn is over. The manual refers to naval sorties. This and a reading of the rules suggest that fleets steam from base, perform their mission and return. However, in the game, fleets remain at sea with no assigned mission after the turn is over. Is this correct? What’s the EP cost of a fleet remaining at sea for several turns? In my opinion fleets should automatically return to base.

I found naval combat very confusing. The game appears to try to implement the board game’s naval combat rule. However it is incomplete or broken.

The naval battle window appears to show the results from tactics selection and the tactical chart. However, in the few battles I tried the display results don’t seem match what the tactical chart says.

It is unclear how to deploy your fleet in the naval battle window. Like the land combat window, there are two areas to deploy: left and right. This suggests that there are two naval sub-battles just like land combat. However, the board game rule does not mention that. I guess that there is only one deployment area divided by the information shown in the middle. Is this correct? Also there are two rows in the deployment areas. What do the rows do?

When deploying ships I noticed I didn’t have to deploy my full fleet. I could even deploy no ships and click engage. Are you suppose to deploy all your ships or what?

According to the manual when you get the tactical advantage you are suppose be able to adjust the range. There appears to be no way to do this.

According to the manual you are suppose to be able to order torpedo attacks. There appears no way to do this and it appears that the computer handles this. In addition the manual says, “Each warfleet may execute 1 torpedo attack per naval battle.” I noticed torpedo icons during battles which I assume are torpedo attacks. However, these appear during more than one battle round. This it seems that fleets can launch more than one torpedo attack.

During naval combat the enemy fleet is hidden except for briefly after you click the engage button. In my opinion, the interval for which the enemy is displayed is too short. Once the fleets engage, I would like to the enemy not to be hidden. The board game work that way.

In the board game, a player selected 2nd fleet to intervene or even not to intervene at all. The computer handles this in the computer game. I prefer how the board game works.

If I were to redesign this, I would streamline and simplify naval combat. I would eliminate selecting tactics or lining up ships. I would have the computer line up the ship and have them slug it out round by round. After each round, I would allow a player to decide how to proceed. A player could continue the engagement, call in another fleet, disengage, etc.

Based on what I’ve seen of the demo, I can’t buy this game at this time. It has too many rough edges. However, it has great potential and I love these types of game. I’ll check back later to see if future improvements justify buying it.

[Anthropoid]

Not sure if it addresses any of your questions or not (as I have not yet read it) but there is a longer version of the manual that can be downloaded.

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=12625

Having just glanced at some of the info on naval, I tend to agree with you that there are some inconsistencies and discrepancies in what actually happens in game and what the ruleboook says.

[calvinus]

I took note of everything in my "TO DO" big doc!
Thanks, Calvinus.

[aglozier]

Not sure if it addresses any of your questions or not (as I have not yet read it) but there is a longer version of the manual that can be downloaded.

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=12625

Thanks. I already read the naval sections of long manual.

[Aphrodite Mae]

I was trying to figure out how to present my questions on naval game stuff, but Aglozier seems to have done it more succinctly and better than I could have! Thanks, Aglozier! So, what I'm going to do is kinda "echo" some key points from Aglozier's post that I'm really wondering about, too. All emphasis is by me.

About sorties and EP costs:
[Quote=Aglozier]It is unclear what is supposed to happen to fleets left at sea after the turn is over. The manual refers to naval sorties. This and a reading of the rules suggest that fleets steam from base, perform their mission and return. However, in the game, fleets remain at sea with no assigned mission after the turn is over. Is this correct? What’s the EP cost of a fleet remaining at sea for several turns? In my opinion fleets should automatically return to base.[/quote]


About naval battles:
[Quote=Aglozier] It is unclear how to deploy your fleet in the naval battle window. ...there are two rows in the deployment areas. What do the rows do?[/quote]

About range:
[Quote=Aglozier]According to the manual when you get the tactical advantage you are suppose be able to adjust the range. There appears to be no way to do this. [/quote]

OK, that deals with the game mechanics stuff. I tend to agree with him on most of his opinions too, except for the part at the end about streamlining and simplifying. I like the design as it is, at least as I understand it.

Even so, I've gotta say that I was really disappointed when I first played the Jutland scenario, because I was kinda looking forward to zipping in and out with cruisers while blastin' away with the Battleships and Battlecruisers, maneuvering for position with spiffy formations and cunning tactics, just waiting for the best moment to unload the torpedoes... but it didn't happen that way, at all. Maybe I'm wrong, but right now, it seems like the player's only function is to decide what ships get to shoot and be shot at. That's not the challenge I was hoping for. So much of what I was looking forward to, after reading the rules, it turns out is done by the AI.

Now, here's the biggest point, and Aglozier didn't mention it.
All of the naval victories are reversed!
It appears to me that the penalty for withdrawal is working as a positive modifier, instead of a penalty: whoever withdraws, wins! I haven't yet played any naval action other than the Jutland scenario, but every time without fail, whichever side withdraws first, wins. So... since I always win, I always lose.


Havely

[aglozier]

Even so, I've gotta say that I was really disappointed when I first played the Jutland scenario, because I was kinda looking forward to zipping in and out with cruisers while blastin' away with the Battleships and Battlecruisers, maneuvering for position with spiffy formations and cunning tactics, just waiting for the best moment to unload the torpedoes... but it didn't happen that way, at all. Maybe I'm wrong, but right now, it seems like the player's only function is to decide what ships get to shoot and be shot at. That's not the challenge I was hoping for. So much of what I was looking forward to, after reading the rules, it turns out is done by the AI.

If you look forward to zipping and blastin' ships try the new game 'Jutland' found here: http://www.stormeaglestudios.com. There's a free demo. I briefly looked at it. It's a 3D graphics game, so you better have a computer with a real graphics card.

[calvinus]

Yesterday night, following some compliants about the too frequent rate of Admirals deaths, I modified the naval rules:

- Death checks for admirals are now performed at the end of naval combat, and no more overy combat round resolution

My next tasks:

- Checking and tweaking of naval combat results
- More effectiveness of naval control missions (mainly in WEGO mode)
- No more than one naval mission per fleet in army-by-army mode (so simulation of Naval Phase)
- and last but not least, the refactoring of naval movement paths determinations (many of you reported problems)

[calvinus]

I have been trying out the demo and I found the naval part of the game to be confusing. To try to understand it further I read the original board game rules. Based on my observations of the game and the manuals I have some questions and comments.

The board game has a separate naval phase that took place before the military phase. Hidden written naval orders are used. This is in effect a WEGO system. Sea control can change during the phase. This could affect the following military by blocking sea supply and transport.

The computer game lacks a separate naval phase and naval is part of the military phase. Thus it appears that it is not possible for changes in sea control to affect the land battle. In addition, if the game is played ‘turn-based’, naval movement is no longer WEGO. In my opinion the game should have a separate WEGO naval phase.

The manual mentions the Kaiser Wilhelm II “Luxus” Fleet rule. In my limited testing I haven’t seen any indication that this is implemented in the game. There was no message of any secret die roll result and I was able to move the High Seas fleet. Prior to naval movement, there should be a pop-up message stating the Kaisers decision.

The manual states that a successful sea control mission changes control for one turn. How long is this? Is it until the end of the current turn or is it until the end of next turn’s naval movement?

It is unclear what is supposed to happen to fleets left at sea after the turn is over. The manual refers to naval sorties. This and a reading of the rules suggest that fleets steam from base, perform their mission and return. However, in the game, fleets remain at sea with no assigned mission after the turn is over. Is this correct? What’s the EP cost of a fleet remaining at sea for several turns? In my opinion fleets should automatically return to base.

I added some key improvements for manage max one mission per turn (the army-by-army mode allowed several missions per navy!). Plus I fixed a bug in Naval Control check.

...
According to the manual when you get the tactical advantage you are suppose be able to adjust the range. There appears to be no way to do this.

The manual (and the tooltip) is wrong. The range is automatically adjusted to most favorable level (that one that allows you to deploy the most number of squadrons).

[calvinus]

Now, here's the biggest point, and Aglozier didn't mention it.
All of the naval victories are reversed!
It appears to me that the penalty for withdrawal is working as a positive modifier, instead of a penalty: whoever withdraws, wins! I haven't yet played any naval action other than the Jutland scenario, but every time without fail, whichever side withdraws first, wins. So... since I always win, I always lose.


Havely

This is fixed now with 1.06c/d.
Just a bit patience and a new patch will come soon!