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Franciscus
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Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:33 pm

tagwyn wrote:I suppose you have to be a European to want to play a game based on the "30 Years War!" It does nothing for me - at all! Where is AGEOD's market? Where do they get sales from? USA! Make games for the market. See? t


Hello tagwin :)

You are absolutely right, of course.
And I assure you that not all european gamers are interested in the 30 YW... ;)

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squarian
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Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:56 pm

tagwyn wrote:I suppose you have to be a European to want to play a game based on the "30 Years War!" It does nothing for me - at all! Where is AGEOD's market? Where do they get sales from? USA! Make games for the market. See? t


Yes, I suspect the N. American market accounts for the majority of sales, though habitues of the forum seem to be about evenly split between N.Am and Eur, especially when the non-English language sections are considered.

But what American wars are left to do? AWI, ACW - done (well done, indeed). The AGE engine isn't suitable to continuous-front modern wars, so WWI & WWII are out. Even the War of 1812 is represented in WIA. You're surely not suggesting AGEOD/Paradox make a foray into the crowded Mexican-American War market, are you, Tagwyn? :)

Bring out the colourful, accessible Napoleonic game. The history of modern wargaming, since Charles Roberts invented the darned things, seems pretty clearly to show that three topics will sell well: Napoleonic Wars, ACW, and WWII.

AGEOD/Paradox would be foolish not to enter their candidate in the Napoleonic category. I'll buy it - in fact, I'd be willing to pay in advance. If it turns out not to come up to expectation, that will be disappointing - not least for the Phils themselves, I would imagine. On the other hand, these fellows have already shown they can produce wargames for wargamers - in light of their track record, why should I question their ability now?

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Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:05 am

I doubt though, that NA players are only interested in wars that have been fought on their soil. At least that would be a shame as most of the greater wars between 500 BC and 2000 AD have occoured on the European continent.

So I guess that you do not need a setting that is based on American history to get NA players interested.

Ilitarist
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:21 am

tagwyn wrote:I suppose you have to be a European to want to play a game based on the "30 Years War!" It does nothing for me - at all! Where is AGEOD's market? Where do they get sales from? USA! Make games for the market. See? t


So games about ancient Rome sell good because of those ancient Romans that buy them?

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H Gilmer3
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:17 pm

tagwyn wrote:I suppose you have to be a European to want to play a game based on the "30 Years War!" It does nothing for me - at all! Where is AGEOD's market? Where do they get sales from? USA! Make games for the market. See? t


I'm from the USA and I'd be all over it.

vaalen
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:12 pm

H Gilmer3 wrote:I'm from the USA and I'd be all over it.


So would I. In fact, the game I would like to see more than any other would be a game on the thirty years war period set in Eastern Europe, to be more specific, the Polish Deluge which took place from 1648-1660.
The Polish Commonwealth began the period as the one of the largest and most powerful states in Europe. During this period, they fought desperate wars with Russia, a massive Cossack rebellion, the Crimean Tartars, Sweden, Brandenburg, the Ottoman Empire, even Transylvania, usually fighting several enemies at once, winning great victories and suffering great defeats, even being conquered by Sweden and Brandenburg, yet rising from the ashes to defeat all of their foes, or at least reach a stalemate that resulted in a temporary peace.

Those of you who have been fortunate enough to read "With Fire and Sword", and the rest of the trilogia by Hendryk Sienkiewicz will understand my fascination with the period.

And I too am from the USA.

Yet I want Ageod to survive and thrive, and I think this means making games on popular periods like Rome, Napoleonic times, Civil War, and World War 2.

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PANGI
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:26 pm

vaalen wrote:So would I. In fact, the game I would like to see more than any other would be a game on the thirty years war period set in Eastern Europe, to be more specific, the Polish Deluge which took place from 1648-1660.
The Polish Commonwealth began the period as the one of the largest and most powerful states in Europe. During this period, they fought desperate wars with Russia, a massive Cossack rebellion, the Crimean Tartars, Sweden, Brandenburg, the Ottoman Empire, even Transylvania, usually fighting several enemies at once, winning great victories and suffering great defeats, even being conquered by Sweden and Brandenburg, yet rising from the ashes to defeat all of their foes, or at least reach a stalemate that resulted in a temporary peace.

Those of you who have been fortunate enough to read "With Fire and Sword", and the rest of the trilogia by Hendryk Sienkiewicz will understand my fascination with the period.

And I too am from the USA.

Yet I want Ageod to survive and thrive, and I think this means making games on popular periods like Rome, Napoleonic times, Civil War, and World War 2.


and do you know this film? its wonderful

http://youtu.be/XNii3m9yJAw
ImageImage

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le Anders
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:48 pm

vaalen wrote:So would I. In fact, the game I would like to see more than any other would be a game on the thirty years war period set in Eastern Europe, to be more specific, the Polish Deluge which took place from 1648-1660.
The Polish Commonwealth began the period as the one of the largest and most powerful states in Europe. During this period, they fought desperate wars with Russia, a massive Cossack rebellion, the Crimean Tartars, Sweden, Brandenburg, the Ottoman Empire, even Transylvania, usually fighting several enemies at once, winning great victories and suffering great defeats, even being conquered by Sweden and Brandenburg, yet rising from the ashes to defeat all of their foes, or at least reach a stalemate that resulted in a temporary peace.

Those of you who have been fortunate enough to read "With Fire and Sword", and the rest of the trilogia by Hendryk Sienkiewicz will understand my fascination with the period.

And I too am from the USA.

Mount & Blade: With Fire & Sword. Taleworlds/Paradox Interactive 2011

Taillebois
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:01 pm

Swedish Empire
Gustavus Adolphus - one of the six Great Captains

(Alexander, Hannibal, Caesar, Frederick, and Napoleon being the others)

AGEOD now owned by Swedish Paradox - I would have thought a game championing their champion would be a good career move, well job preservation at least.

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OneArmedMexican
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:16 pm

Taillebois wrote:Swedish Empire
Gustavus Adolphus - one of the six Great Captains

AGEOD now owned by Swedish Paradox - I would have thought a game championing their champion would be a good career move, well job preservation at least.


Good argument! Why has it taken Paradox so long to honour the possibly greatest Swedish general in history with a game?

The 30 Years War was in many ways a European war rather than a German affair. France, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Spain all became parties to this war. But it is also part of the history of Poland, Belgium, Italy, Hungry even Rumania (Transylvanian troops participated heavily), ...
Key actors like Wallenstein are part of the national history and cultural heritage of several countries (Czech Republic, Austria and Germany).

Perhaps there would be a market after all?

Quirk wrote:I doubt though, that NA players are only interested in wars that have been fought on their soil. At least that would be a shame as most of the greater wars between 500 BC and 2000 AD have occoured on the European continent.


No offence intended but your statement shows beautifully that European gamers aren't any better than the cliché you paint of North Americans. In your euro-centric picture of history you forget China, India, the Middle East and Japan (just to name a few examples) who all have a history rich in bloodshed.

The bloodiest war in the 19th century for example wasn't fought in Europe at all but rather as a Chinese Civil War (Taiping Rebellion). That would be an awesome topic for a truely obscure game by the way. :D

Baris
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:53 pm

le Anders wrote:Mount & Blade: With Fire & Sword. Taleworlds/Paradox Interactive 2011


Talesworlds (İkisoft as first name) headquarters were first in Ankara. Armağan Yavuz is the founder. First edition of Mount & Blade were rewarded as the best independent game by American Pc Gamer. Paradox become the distributor and they published many expansion games. Even though the engine graphics were very poor vs other shooters and the theme of the game is about obscure periods of history I think they sell well for their unique game concepts.

From my perspective as long as the scenario designers put much effort ,age engine can produce miracles even with obscure period themes. So We have to feed volunteers with honey and "Mesir Paste"* for their work in the next age game. :thumbsup:

*List of Herbs necessary for the paste: :wacko:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macun

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Nikel
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:56 pm

Baris wrote: So We have to feed volunteers with honey and "Mesir Paste"* for their work in the next age game. :thumbsup:


First we must know who they are :siffle:

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Philippe
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:59 pm

"The bloodiest war in the 19th century for example wasn't fought in Europe at all but rather as a Chinese Civil War (Taiping Rebellion). That would be an awesome topic for a truely obscure game by the way."

Not just a topic for games. Many of the dishes in Chinese restaurants with cryptic names are actually allusions to the Taiping Rebellion. The problem is that most restaurant owners either don't know enough history or lack the Western language skills to explain that Lake Tung Ting shrimp isn't just named after a body of water with succulent shrimp in it, or that most of the General Dishes are named after heroes of the rebellion.

Having said that, I have yet to see a menu item that clearly alludes to the harmonious fists, though you can never be sure. But if you want to make your maitre d' very happy and ensure good service (even if you don't speak Chinese), it sometimes helps if he/she realizes that you're familiar with the oath in the Peach Orchard and know what a yellow turban/scarf means.

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Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:12 pm

OneArmedMexican wrote:No offence intended but your statement shows beautifully that European gamers aren't any better than the cliché you paint of North Americans. In your euro-centric picture of history you forget China, India, the Middle East and Japan (just to name a few examples) who all have a history rich in bloodshed.

The bloodiest war in the 19th century for example wasn't fought in Europe at all but rather as a Chinese Civil War (Taiping Rebellion). That would be an awesome topic for a truely obscure game by the way. :D


No offence taken :)
You are absolutely right and I guess most people are of course a bit "regio-centric". Though I only named wars in the western hemisphere as we were talking about North America and Europe, not because I might deem other conflicts uninteresting. Just to defend my statement a bit ;)

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le Anders
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:53 pm

Given Paradox' experience with the Chinese market/censors, I don't see a lot of focus on that part of the world in future games...

tagwyn
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:03 pm

OK!! As usual, I bespoke before I thought it out clearly. My bad!!! Go AGEOD!!! t

Ilitarist
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:21 pm

Quirk wrote:No offence taken :)
You are absolutely right and I guess most people are of course a bit "regio-centric". Though I only named wars in the western hemisphere as we were talking about North America and Europe, not because I might deem other conflicts uninteresting. Just to defend my statement a bit ;)


I understand that it's bad I know so little about culture and history of China, India, Mongols, Koreans and many other countries. But even with understanding that China consist of more than just Romance of 3 Kingdoms and Confucius I'd go play a game with some Caesar or Napoleon. RUS may be a very good example: go play the greatest civil war that decided fate of the world. Not many people want that apparently. Sad but true.

vaalen
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:20 pm

PANGI wrote:and do you know this film? its wonderful

http://youtu.be/XNii3m9yJAw


Yes, it is. I was lucky enough to see it. The movie version of "With Fire and Sword" was also wonderful.

vaalen
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:27 pm

le Anders wrote:Mount & Blade: With Fire & Sword. Taleworlds/Paradox Interactive 2011


This is not a serious game. It evokes nothing of the scope or period of the books. It is Mount and Blade with different costumes and map.

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Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:36 pm

Ilitarist wrote:I understand that it's bad I know so little about culture and history of China, India, Mongols, Koreans and many other countries. But even with understanding that China consist of more than just Romance of 3 Kingdoms and Confucius I'd go play a game with some Caesar or Napoleon. RUS may be a very good example: go play the greatest civil war that decided fate of the world. Not many people want that apparently. Sad but true.


Biggest problem is, that there are not too many "hardcore" strategy gamers around. The new generation of gamers (around 14 to 25) play more action oriented games. Maybe this will change again in the future, but currently we are still heading for more casual and action.
Second problem, in my opinion, is that the games from Ageod and Paradox are very balancing heavy and still need a lot of fine tuning before they can be played even after release. For example, I bought PoN when it came out, but did not play it, yet, as it is still too unbalanced for my tasting. I can wait, as I know most games from Ageod/Paradox will finally be a good experience, but most gamers will not.

So how can a company be profitable and still make games that are meant for a small niche market? To be honest, I have no clue...

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PANGI
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:46 pm

vaalen wrote:Yes, it is. I was lucky enough to see it. The movie version of "With Fire and Sword" was also wonderful.


yeah, and "Pan Wolodyjowski"
ImageImage

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Flop
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Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:48 pm

Quirk wrote:Biggest problem is, that there are not too many "hardcore" strategy gamers around. The new generation of gamers (around 14 to 25) play more action oriented games. Maybe this will change again in the future, but currently we are still heading for more casual and action.
Second problem, in my opinion, is that the games from Ageod and Paradox are very balancing heavy and still need a lot of fine tuning before they can be played even after release. For example, I bought PoN when it came out, but did not play it, yet, as it is still too unbalanced for my tasting. I can wait, as I know most games from Ageod/Paradox will finally be a good experience, but most gamers will not.

So how can a company be profitable and still make games that are meant for a small niche market? To be honest, I have no clue...


I'm not sure that there are any less strategy gamers around now, than there were 10 or 20 years ago. The computer gaming market has expanded a lot in that time, though, so it's probably true that the percentage of gamers, that are strategy gamers, has fallen. Still, there are plenty of good strategy games out there, and I don't see any signs that less will be produced in the future.

And can I ask what you mean, when you say that Ageod and Paradox titles are unbalanced? Do you mean that the nations are not equally strong? Because it would be rather odd, not to mention ahistorical, if they were.

DanSez
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:24 am

Ok, here is one from Left Field ...

By looking at the pole that asked what games should be next

The NAP Campaign was top vote
The Roman/Punic Wars/Cesear/etc was 2nd
The 30 Yrs War was 3rd

if (and it depends on the secret team's driving intentions) it goes by vote, the next (2nd game) will be a Roman-era themed game with lots of modules to cover the long time period.

Now here is the pitch ...
why not market one of, if not the 1st release as
Authur - the true story, and base it on the end of Roman rule in England, Arturius, the General mixing it up with the Angles,Saxons and making peace alliances with some of the older Celtic tribes still in Wales (were you could pull in Merlin, or a Latinized equalivent).

Real war game mechanics, no magic swords or dragons or such - a wide open field for the designers to set up an interesting game as the historical facts are a bit foggy. Treaties, economics, supplies, building forts, depots, raising and keeping units in the field --- keep true to the war game aspect, but romance it up a bit with lore and tribe/clan interaction and once developed, keep this player interface to educate those who want to know more about the Gaulic tribes, the Carthegians, the major Roman families, whatever main players there are in the expansion games. And make this feature an option for those of us who just want to play the war game.

I bet it would get attention - it would depend on the developers to make the game engaging and the marketing to get the word out.

/*

Halberdier
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:39 am

I suggest a modern insurgency and counterinsurgency wars (Not Fronts). The Ageod engine is perfect for this IMO :thumbsup: :

Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

You can figth from Americas to Asia:
Image


But a new Ageod need in IMHO:

*A vanilla game for Causal Gamer: easy, quick, well know wars ( Cuba, Angola, Afghanistan and Vietnam)

Image


*Easy editors to Quick MOD: Historic information, Units, Maps, Scenarios, Campaigns.

Image

Best regards

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le Anders
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:47 am

"Insurgency" sounds perfect for the Rhodesian conflict too.

bobbob
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:16 am

Like i always push, Vietnam is the game AGE should do. No fronts, people still remember it or for some lived it, modern war, introduces an air war module and the vietnamese speak french. Perfect for the AGE engine. This would sell in my opinion. Thanks

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H Gilmer3
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:34 am

tagwyn wrote:OK!! As usual, I bespoke before I thought it out clearly. My bad!!! Go AGEOD!!! t


Nah, no worries. We all love the give and take of this forum.

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H Gilmer3
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:38 am

vaalen wrote:So would I. In fact, the game I would like to see more than any other would be a game on the thirty years war period set in Eastern Europe, to be more specific, the Polish Deluge which took place from 1648-1660.
The Polish Commonwealth began the period as the one of the largest and most powerful states in Europe. During this period, they fought desperate wars with Russia, a massive Cossack rebellion, the Crimean Tartars, Sweden, Brandenburg, the Ottoman Empire, even Transylvania, usually fighting several enemies at once, winning great victories and suffering great defeats, even being conquered by Sweden and Brandenburg, yet rising from the ashes to defeat all of their foes, or at least reach a stalemate that resulted in a temporary peace.

Those of you who have been fortunate enough to read "With Fire and Sword", and the rest of the trilogia by Hendryk Sienkiewicz will understand my fascination with the period.

And I too am from the USA.

Yet I want Ageod to survive and thrive, and I think this means making games on popular periods like Rome, Napoleonic times, Civil War, and World War 2.


You and I would play it!! And they could add in some of the battles around the 1683 time frame. :)

Quirk
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:09 am

Flop wrote:I'm not sure that there are any less strategy gamers around now, than there were 10 or 20 years ago. The computer gaming market has expanded a lot in that time, though, so it's probably true that the percentage of gamers, that are strategy gamers, has fallen. Still, there are plenty of good strategy games out there, and I don't see any signs that less will be produced in the future.

And can I ask what you mean, when you say that Ageod and Paradox titles are unbalanced? Do you mean that the nations are not equally strong? Because it would be rather odd, not to mention ahistorical, if they were.


Well, maybe not overall strategy gamers, but gamers like us, who play "hardcore", mostly turned based strategy games. Starcraft 2 is also a strategy game, but it of course appeals to another type of gamer than games from Ageod.
And whenever I talk to younger gamers in the age range I mentioned above, maybe 1 out of 30 plays turned based games. But those are just my assumptions/experiences and maybe I am too pessimistic or meet the wrong people :)

With unbalanced I mean everything. Nations, units, economies. Most games need 2 or 3 patches before they run smoothly. Not only because some bugs have to be fixed, but because tweaks have to be implemented as well. Do not misunderstand me, it is very normal for today's industry that a game is being released without any bug or major glitch. But Ageod's and Paradox's games are often more complicated than other games and it is even harder to balance them, especially without the help of dedicated gamers. No problem for me, but definitely for many other players.

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Duckman
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:58 pm

I think AGEOD wont in the forseeable future delve into 30YW. The risks for them are too high, although I think being owned by a swedish company would make things easier, because of Gustav A. etc. Alas,

it will be up to a dedicated modding community to developed a project similar to RUS. I scoped around with Phillipe what is needed for a project like RUS or 30YW, the first step is a map. We cannot proceed without a map.

At this point in my life, I cant guarantee a single man-day for the next year or so, so let me just add my voice to the masses. Wont anyone ever do a proper 3OYW PC strategy game? I mean sure, US has 260million inhabitants, but if we do the European math =

Germany 80 million, Sweden 10 million, Czech 10 million, Denmark, France, Poland, Holland, Belgium, Spain, UK (with a unique scenario about the revolution), I think the numbers would still add up! And the possibilities of DLCs - Polish Commonwealth, Russia, Habsburg-Turkish struggles.

The added bonus - no competition. EA will never make a game about this topic and AGEOD could clean up. But the game has to be as simple as BOA1 - to me simply the best game so far. The engine has its limits, and tacking on too much makes it too complicated and scares people away.

So just movement combat, plus supply management (something simple and clear a la Unity of Command). If great need be, add simple events. Voila :coeurs:

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