Paradox Interactive & Paradox France

[PhilThib]

In fact we all should wait and see what they will come up with. For sure, it will be different from what we planned to do, or what we could do with a NCP2 on the AGE engine....does not mean necessarily it's worse...or better....just different. Let's see

[Pocus]

Had to re-register, but here are my thoughts as a wargame player and an investor in businesses.

You need sales. Yet you persist in making beautiful games that are historically accurate, but just too difficult for casual players and beginners. By all means keep your grognards happy at the difficult levels, but get new customers in quickly by making the easy levels really easy. Why not issue a patch for all your existing games with a new lower easy level with crippled AI, no supply, no economics, no attrition.

You need more scenarios or more ways of making scenario variations on the fly. Frankly, being told a new game has six historical scenarios is a turn off not a turn on. Six historical scenarios and a thousand non-historical "What-if" variations is a much better value proposition. Perhaps you need to make scenario making and modding easier. Combat Mission is made by a small team at Battlefront. They've done pretty well allowing loads of mods and scenarios to be created. The grognards can mutter about the wrong shape of bayonet and somebody will come up with a mod. Trying to keep too much control over the way people play your games will cramp the market. So what if I want to replay "Last Flight of the Eagle" with Napoleon starting in Paris and Wellington in Amsterdam. So what if I play Combat Mission quick battles as armour versus armour only because I find the "new, better" infantry handling more tedious.

Sun Tzu said: The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy. As a business bankruptcy is defeat. I want you guys in business producing games that sell, not telling your pals that you produced the most complex game with more lines of code than anybody else, but that sadly you are now bust.

Yes, we need more sales, and we can probably propose options that disable whole parts of the engine, like (example given) 'Arcade Supply'. But do you really think it will make the engine that accessible, it will still be a WEGO engine where you have to plan hard, with a lot of little details there and there. The AGE engine can't be Axis and Allies, that's thinking an apple is an orange, sort of...
But we are aware that the engine can be complex, daunting even. Just don't ask us to try morphing it into something super casual, we would lose our current players and not gain new ones I believe.

As for the number of scenarios, this is not a valid argument for me. Paradox sells fine with mainly a single campaign, and people are happy with that, for the most part. So I don't think that going from 6 to 20 would change our sells figures... And we don't want to fool people by proposing 10 scenarios that are basically the same, baring the relocation of an army there and there. So as each scenario is vastly different, it takes hundreds of hours to create and fine tune, each. I guess people don't understand how time consuming can be the process of adding historical data, then scenarios then fine tuning them. It's like thinking that a paint is 'just some random colours on a canvas'.

[vonRocko]

. Just don't ask us to try morphing it into something super casual, we would lose our current players and not gain new ones I believe.
.

[ERISS]

+1 with Taillebois, what I already said in differents ways.

we can probably propose options that disable whole parts of the engine,
The AGE engine can't be Axis and Allies,
But we are aware that the engine can be complex, daunting even. Just don't ask us to try morphing it into something super casual, we would lose our current players and not gain new ones I believe.

You don't need to go casual, however you can think WiA is? As I already said, I think you have to make some wargame in a more 'casual' background in a WiA engine (or an even less complex one). Now that Ageod has the Paradox marketing help, I think it could attract consummers, who thenafter could ask for more, more historical or more complex, and at last go buy your past games.
But you're right, I may be a bad counseillor, it's you whom take the chances.

[Taillebois]

Thanks for your reply Pocus. I can understand your reluctance to create a masterpiece and then be told to smash it up a bit to get a few more sales.

I actually can imagine how difficult and time consuming it is to add historical data, then scenarios then fine tuning them. And as a business that is hours (days, weeks, months probably) of additional effort often for very marginal gain in sales. That dreadful word sales again, sorry, but I'm a financier of sorts. It's also asymmetrical because wargamers/grognards are a bit mad you have to get so many details right and you'll still be ridiculed or shouted at for some minor historical error or insult (perceived or otherwise) because somebody else is an expert in that area. I'd probably just give up and go to the beach.

Anyway I presume that now you are divorced from Paradox you are at least better able to decide what you want to do - and reap the benefits, or consequences.

In Chessmaster you can play as a complete novice and up to Grand Master level yet Chessmaster isn't diminished by that huge range of playing levels. It's an easy recommendation for any friend or acqaintance who asks what game to get for their child. But for a more historical sort of game - well Civilization is still my recommendation - partly because the span of history is such a good story, but also again because the range of difficulty from beginner to expert is such that, whilst people may get bored of it, they are very unlikely to beat it regularly at the difficult levels. (As an aside Alpha Centauri was a "better" game but just didn't garner the popularity and easy acceptance).

Now if we move to specific wargame periods the traditions have pretty much always been - Ancients, Napoleonic, American Civil War, WW2. So what's the obvious Ancients game? Has to be Rome:Total War - even with flying pigs or whatever!

Anyway this Quick Reply is now rambling on so my final words here are "Keep, simple simple: hard can be as hard as you can make it;" and watch out for a knock on the door - I almost called in on you guys in Grenoble/Meylan a few months ago just to make sure you really were working hard - and I might do so this autumn when I next drive through France. I don't want any slacking.

[Warsage]

Guys, in any case "dumbed down" is such a loaded expression. "March of the Eagles" will surely have a different emphasis, scope and appeal than NC2 would've had, but implying that the game (and its gamers?) are "downdumbed" isn't very respectful of their intelligence and tastes

You are absolutely right. I did not measure my words. Sorry. (Edit my previous post).

[Rafiki]

No worries, guys, I just wanted to voice my unhappiness with the term "dumbed down".

Now, let's return to our scheduled programming

[Taillebois]

Just back from an evening of tennis and drinking - it's stopped raining here in my part of England. Anyway saw this recent thread on the AACW forum:

""
Default New Player and completely Lost

I am an avid gamer, love wargames including historical but I dont get this game. I have run the tutorials, read the rules twice and have played Bull Run 3 times but nothing happens. I cant move most of the troops, when I march out of manasas I lose. The Yanks wont attack me! What am I doing wrong...
""

[ribaluigi]

Had to re-register, but here are my thoughts as a wargame player and an investor in businesses.

You need sales. Yet you persist in making beautiful games that are historically accurate, but just too difficult for casual players and beginners. By all means keep your grognards happy at the difficult levels, but get new customers in quickly by making the easy levels really easy. Why not issue a patch for all your existing games with a new lower easy level with crippled AI, no supply, no economics, no attrition.

You need more scenarios or more ways of making scenario variations on the fly. Frankly, being told a new game has six historical scenarios is a turn off not a turn on. Six historical scenarios and a thousand non-historical "What-if" variations is a much better value proposition. Perhaps you need to make scenario making and modding easier. Combat Mission is made by a small team at Battlefront. They've done pretty well allowing loads of mods and scenarios to be created. The grognards can mutter about the wrong shape of bayonet and somebody will come up with a mod. Trying to keep too much control over the way people play your games will cramp the market. So what if I want to replay "Last Flight of the Eagle" with Napoleon starting in Paris and Wellington in Amsterdam. So what if I play Combat Mission quick battles as armour versus armour only because I find the "new, better" infantry handling more tedious.

Sun Tzu said: The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy. As a business bankruptcy is defeat. I want you guys in business producing games that sell, not telling your pals that you produced the most complex game with more lines of code than anybody else, but that sadly you are now bust.

A similar opinion seems to be stated by a Paradox developer in the March of the Eagles (aka NCP 2) forum (here the full post):

As you may or may not know, the project formerly known as Napoleons Campaigns II, which was a Co.-production between Paradox France and Paradox Development Studio has been brought fully in-house to be developed further by PDS. [...]

One of the key issues we had to address was how to make the game more accessible, these days accessibility is something by which our games are constantly measured against, both by the general gaming community but also our core audience. As you all know by now, with accessibility we don’t means less complex. Just easier to get into. [...]

Just to say I agree with both.

[Ilitarist]

Would it be better to say it was simplified and made more abstract? Because that is what seems to have happened. And I mean no disrespect to anyone, as there is nothing wrong with people who prefer simpler, more abstract, games. I just do not happen to be one of them.

Simpler and more accessible interface isn't the same as simpler gameplay. MotE tries to be sandbox-ish with giving player ability to play with minor powers, but isn't it much more difficult than playing as great power as you do in any AGEOD game? Now the only problem is AI, though this game has tiny scale and Paradox may give each side enough processor thinking time.

[Ech Heftag]

Personally, I'm not really that convinced that "more accessible gameplay" will automatically lead to higher sales figures. Perhaps the most famous and best selling Paradox game, Europa Universalis III, is also the most complex and least accessible of their recent titles. At the same, we should not forget that sales figures are not only a function of accessibility and content, but also include factors like reputation, product awareness and media coverage. Basically, the thing with sales figures is not as easy as some marketing experts or economists want us to believe

[PhilThib]

And a key factor is also the distribution channels....if a game, even if mediocre, is sold on large platforms like Steam, it will sell bigger units than if sold only on the dev's website or smaller sales sites...

[Ilitarist]

Personally, I'm not really that convinced that "more accessible gameplay" will automatically lead to higher sales figures. Perhaps the most famous and best selling Paradox game, Europa Universalis III, is also the most complex and least accessible of their recent titles. At the same, we should not forget that sales figures are not only a function of accessibility and content, but also include factors like reputation, product awareness and media coverage. Basically, the thing with sales figures is not as easy as some marketing experts or economists want us to believe

All of this is very subjective. EU3 was my first P-x game and it was easy to get it, but I still can't get into HoI3. And HoI3 is their most successful game, I think, or very close to it. Theme is important, of course. I'm sure AACW selling better than RUS or RoP proves it. I don't see why AGE games need such complex interface (it's not like it's the most complex wargame out there) but at least it's a difficult task for programmers and designers. Choice of unpopular themes is much stranger.

[Taillebois]

In that case you should immediately go to Steam, except I found a thread which says you did and they refused on the grounds the games were old. Given that their marginal cost of adding another game must be pretty low that is a curious reaction. My own experience of Steam is that it basically crippled a laptop a few years ago so I'm staying away from it even if it means I cannot get some games - my laptop is also for work, too risky to lose use.

Ok, let's return to the business case. You have effectively done a management buy-out taking yourselves away from Paradox. If you want to play around with financial "what-if" scenarios you can use my website http://www.equityventures.co.uk where there is an online financial model.

Perhaps it is time for some creative marketing. How about sending a free copy of Napoleon's Campaigns to every history department of every secondary school in France?

[wosung]

Maybe options could be

-trying to produce more popular themes,
-a stronger inclusion of building or character management aspects,
-a focus on grand strategy rather than military- operational scale
(Edit: Or instead - tactical scale, wasn't Age of Rifles a success, but well tactical better be RT. New engine - bad idea)
-the inclusion of an editor more user-friendly (pushing the production of community-based more *exotic* themes)

I'm not sure at all that the Paradox success mainly is a result of RT. (Johan: *TBS doesn't sell*)
Disclaimer: I do not want Ageod going RT.

What do you guys think?

Best regards

[PhilThib]

Perhaps it is time for some creative marketing. How about sending a free copy of Napoleon's Campaigns to every history department of every secondary school in France?

Thanks for the suggestions. We are now finalizing the separation between PF and PI, it should go all right...

Your creative marketing solution is excellent, and I would do it if I was anglo-saxon...but France's Education Nationale is worst than the old Soviet Union...that would not just work... you would need to send 10 samples to the top ministry in Paris and wait 10 years some b... civil servant up there finds out about you...and dump your stuff in the dustbin... unless you are a close friend of the minister (and even that would not work for sure!), this 'creativity' does not work here...

But we did succeed some years ago in the USA with our AACW game

[Taillebois]

Creative marketing solution version 2.

You have said that balancing scenarios takes time. Rather than re-balance the whole game I suggest you re-balance just "Last Flight of the Eagle" - the shortest of Napoleon's Campaigns. You re-balance it so much that anyone including me or my mother can win as Napoleon. In fact, I don't trust you to re-balance it enough. You will have to drag spotty youths off the streets of Meylan with promises of free alcohol, drugs or sex if they can win as Napoleon. They then have five minutes introduction to the game, which will be played with FOW off. They then have three goes to win. If they haven't got a victory in three goes you haven't re-balanced it enough.

Once you've got a re-balanced version you call it "Last Flight of the Eagle - French Glory" - or whatever - and add it to the current version of the game. You then make the full game free for download.

That's the preparation done.

Now you email or press release as much of France as you possibly can. Don't bother with games magazines - try everything else - schools, dentists waiting rooms, vets, political parties - maybe gardening magazines have readers who like history. Email back all the bastards who have spammed you for the last year or so. You just want to make some people curious enough to download the game and try it. "Free to everybody who voted for Francois Hollande; others pay 5 euro" - which may wind some people up until they find they can get it for free too. It's a "guerilla marketing" campaign, by a wargame company - some irony in that.

Apart from the time re-balancing the scenario, and grabbing emailing lists, the whole thing shouldn't cost much. If there's no response, well so what.

[RELee]

And a key factor is also the distribution channels....if a game, even if mediocre, is sold on large platforms like Steam, it will sell bigger units than if sold only on the dev's website or smaller sales sites...

I agree, but I am very reluctant to purchase games from Steam. Just saying...

[yellow ribbon]

well, that kind of distribution drives the marginal cost of transactions pretty low, thats all... the rest is the question who actually earns the money of the gap to the opportunity costs.
mostly the player, who uses the money, blue coins for the next game.

but here we go, i for my part will never ever use again any of the big two portals...

come on, 200 annivers. of Belle Aliance is coming up... they even try to restore the battlefield to its original crest of the hill.

gimme enough golden paint and Napoleons lookout mountain will be known as AGEODs ´lil round top in future ^^

[ERISS]

Steam I'm staying away from it - my laptop is also for work, too risky to lose use.

Sure! Steam is a drm, a technology which can help stealing your datas (as it has your pc adress and file system to manage the game rights).
It protects the game rights owners, not what's on your pc, work or other personnal: it's the reverse for the consummer.

I know that's the same with Microsoft for Windows, but games are not a reason to add a weak spot with Steam on a pc with hot data.
That's one reason, among many, why professionnal prefer Linux.

[Baris]

I think in 5-10 years with ultra speed internet "Cloud gaming" will be standart for all the platforms for preventing piracy and hardware upgrade again and again for all users. Of course if big CPU&video card developers permit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_gaming
In future we all be more card-index for government and the market.

[Pocus]

Very interesting (and amusing somehow) solutions proposals and I believe we will keep them in store for the future... Though I'm quite sure that our next game won't be on Napoleon.

Creative marketing solution version 2.

You have said that balancing scenarios takes time. Rather than re-balance the whole game I suggest you re-balance just "Last Flight of the Eagle" - the shortest of Napoleon's Campaigns. You re-balance it so much that anyone including me or my mother can win as Napoleon. In fact, I don't trust you to re-balance it enough. You will have to drag spotty youths off the streets of Meylan with promises of free alcohol, drugs or sex if they can win as Napoleon. They then have five minutes introduction to the game, which will be played with FOW off. They then have three goes to win. If they haven't got a victory in three goes you haven't re-balanced it enough.

Once you've got a re-balanced version you call it "Last Flight of the Eagle - French Glory" - or whatever - and add it to the current version of the game. You then make the full game free for download.

That's the preparation done.

Now you email or press release as much of France as you possibly can. Don't bother with games magazines - try everything else - schools, dentists waiting rooms, vets, political parties - maybe gardening magazines have readers who like history. Email back all the bastards who have spammed you for the last year or so. You just want to make some people curious enough to download the game and try it. "Free to everybody who voted for Francois Hollande; others pay 5 euro" - which may wind some people up until they find they can get it for free too. It's a "guerilla marketing" campaign, by a wargame company - some irony in that.

Apart from the time re-balancing the scenario, and grabbing emailing lists, the whole thing shouldn't cost much. If there's no response, well so what.

[yellow ribbon]

Very interesting (and amusing somehow) solutions proposals and I believe we will keep them in store for the future... Though I'm quite sure that our next game won't be on Napoleon.

why should it, you have one about him...

you know your forum better then we, thus the potential customers, but look, the typical player here got hooked by some movie or interest in history and thus is buying your niche products.

sometimes i am frightened how many parallels there are between active forum members. same books/autors/hobbies/gaming experience

the target groop is not as large as to live from casual buyers, but easy to catch in certain environments like smoke of gunpowder

[helm123]

I see it this way. Now you guys can work on that PC version of Avalon Hills War and Peace. You know you want to.

[PhilThib]

I see it this way. Now you guys can work on that PC version of Avalon Hills War and Peace. You know you want to.

Well, the heirs and owners of rights to AH War & Peace would have to have their say here first

[vonRocko]

Well, the heirs and owners of rights to AH War & Peace would have to have their say here first

Just change the name to "Peace & War", and your in business!

[Ilitarist]

Just change the name to "Peace & War", and your in business!

I think Tolstoy wouldn't really mind if you use just War & Peace. Or can you copyright that name for other medias? If so I'll go get me some rights for games "Bible", "Carried by the wind" and "Thus Spoke Zarathustra".

[yellow ribbon]

I think Tolstoy wouldn't really mind if you use just War & Peace. Or can you copyright that name for other medias? If so I'll go get me some rights for games "Bible", "Carried by the wind" and "Thus Spoke Zarathustra".

"One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star."

would be a not that practical name would it...

War and peace shall bring us back to the situation room:

"At the approach of danger there are always two voices that speak with equal force in the heart of man: one very reasonably tells the man to consider the nature of the danger and the means of avoiding it; the other even more reasonable says that it is too painful and harassing to think of the danger, since it is not a man's power to provide for everything and escape from the general march of events; and that it is therefore better to turn aside from the painful subject till it has come, and to think of what is pleasant. In solitude a man generally yields to the first voice; in society to the second.

LEO TOLSTOY, War and Peace"