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TiFlo
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Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:47 pm

As far as I know, the 42nd was still wearing kilts during the Bushy Run campaign and the following Cherokee uprising in the South. Officers reports mention that after several weeks spent in the wilderness, a lot of men would be left with a rag in place of their once flamboyant kilt, while several others would not even have anything left, and most of them where forced to walk bare feet after their shoes disintegrated. This indeed led to the abortion half way through of one those campaigns in the South, when it became clear that so many men had to be carried on mule's backs. As you can see, it was far from being as heroic and nice looking as one could think.

By the time of Pontiac's War, kilted regiments in North America were commonly issued with Indian leggings (for those regiments whose officers cared enough). The full tartan like the one PANGI used as a model for his Highlander were probably last used on the field there on the Plains of Abraham, by the 78th, which is also know to have led the last Highlander charge ever with Broadswords. From then on, kilts were adopted as lighter, cheaper and less cumbersome outfits for Highland regiments, although the tartan would remain as a parade outfit.

For winter dress, records form the first wintering British garrison in Québec are pretty depressing. Highland soldiers were by far the more distressed, being exposed to cold more than their comrades because of their tartan. At that point, regulation did no longer matter and soldiers would dress with whatever was available. Which was mostly covers that would be sawed so as to make pants, and as a result they dropped by tens before the arrival of Spring.

Tartan leggings would become in use during the next decade, and could really be seen in North America during the WOI, not before.

PS: I was being sarcastic about the greatness of imperial troops.

EDIT: @ PANGI
Actually, I do prefer my rolled up blanket, especially for a worn out veteran unit fighting during Pontiac's War (hence the leggings in my version). But if you want to go with the clean and parade field look-a-like of freshly arrived troops still wearing their bulky sword and tartan, then the cover must go :D
[CENTER]« Quel pays ! Quels hommes ! Quelle guerre ! Non, ma chère maman, votre enfant n'est pas fait pour habiter cette contrée barbare. »
[/CENTER]
[CENTER] Louis-Antoine de Bougainville, 1758
[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Image
[/CENTER]

[CENTER][color=DarkGreen]WIA 1.05 Patch[/color]
[/CENTER]


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Hobbes
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Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:39 pm

Very interesting TiFlo, thanks (I'm trying hard not to mention underpants here when the kilts turned to rags). So it seems the 42nd would have been issued with kilts, but by the time of Pontiac's War they may have been wearing quite a mixed array of clothing on the legs?

I suppose in a game the unit can look as it should on a parade ground - but also quite nice to have a unit look as it might in the field at the time. I'll leave you two to slug that one out and I'll take the finished result :)

I think highlanders are rightly fêted - narry a sound to chill the bones than made by a piper I imagine :)

Cheers, Chris

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TiFlo
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Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:05 pm

Yeah, Highlander just look plain badass. In no way better soldiers than any other regulars (especially when you read what some officers who commanded them had to say, Wolfe being the exception), but badass looking. That's enough for me :D

I'm afraid I don't have any answer for the underpanties though :mdr:

As for the way they dressed, it was really more a matter of what was at hand rather than regulation. Especially in the colonies. And as the war progressed, officers became more inclined to break the rules so as to dress their men more appropriately, depending on the type of warfare they were to carry on. Thus, for example, leather Indian leggings became of regular issue for many British and French regiments alike by 1758 (especially for the French for whom lack of supply from Europe was really becoming a problem).

So, highland units operating inland and in the wilderness definitely had to be provided with some kind of protection for their legs, considering it's not very fun to leave your skin on every two scratchy plants that make most of the dense undergrowth of backwood countries. At the beginning, they would be outfitted with regular cloth / wool gaiters from the Kings' magazines. A handful of campaigns would then convince most of the smart and open minded officers that while good enough for clear cultivated European country, they were not sturdy enough for North America, therefore relying on Indian craftsmanship to equip their troops.

What do you think of that coat? Gone is my first love.Image

EDIT: Here is my take at the sword and belt. I'm not happy with the look of the sword (it doesn't blend well with the overall style of the drawing, and needs sharper colours to make it stand out more). Maybe you could have a shot at it PANGI?
Image

@ Hobbes
From Don Troiani
[CENTER]« Quel pays ! Quels hommes ! Quelle guerre ! Non, ma chère maman, votre enfant n'est pas fait pour habiter cette contrée barbare. »
[/CENTER]
[CENTER] Louis-Antoine de Bougainville, 1758
[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Image
[/CENTER]

[CENTER][color=DarkGreen]WIA 1.05 Patch[/color]
[/CENTER]


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PANGI
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:21 am

Good work. Ok, ok...it's really hard to make you satisfied TiFlo :)

TiFlo wrote:What do you think of that coat? Gone is my first love.


You mean the open coat? Ive tryed to make it. (first love?) Do you insist on that black neckcloth? (i like the rococuesqe long white neck)

ImageImageImageImageImage

What do you think? (and of course the bonnet...)

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Hobbes
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:13 am

Superb! :w00t: I want to use them both :thumbsup:

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PANGI
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:26 am

Hobbes wrote:Superb! :w00t: I want to use them both :thumbsup:


Both? Which one? Sorry Hobbes :D

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TiFlo
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:31 pm

PANGI wrote:Good work. Ok, ok...it's really hard to make you satisfied TiFlo :)
Yeah. And you like it, don't you? ;) You're doing such a great job, I see no point in stopping when you are able to pull out 1st class graphics so well.

You mean the open coat? Ive tryed to make it. (first love?) Do you insist on that black neckcloth? (i like the rococuesqe long white neck)
See? Your open coat looks so good. I've been trying to find whether the tie has to be black or white, and why, but have not had any luck there. It seems both were equally worn so white is fine.[/quote]

ImageImageImageImageImage

What do you think? (and of course the bonnet...)
:coeurs: Formidable!

It is indeed hard to have to discard one or another. I'd suggest keeping #1 and #4. I'm not sure if you can distribute JSGME alongside your pack (wonderful tool BTW, I've used it for some time with Silent Hunter 3), but if it is so, and provided the instructions are clear enough, several packs can be made available to public, and players can install/uninstall them at will depending on what scenario they are playing (regulars wearing white gaiters and different French regiments, as well as your early 18th cent. units). What do you think?

Now, onto my usual nitpicking, which will be my last for this beautiful guy. Would you be able to move the cartridge pouch up to the same level as the belly belt? Actually, I understand that we have the same model for #4, so I'll risk asking even more. :D Are you still here? Thank you. What about removing all trace of the white laces on his coat (#4), as well as the yellow regimental sleeves? I'll spare you the adding of some leather patches, although it is very hard to refrain from asking.

On a side note, what program are you using? And do you have a digital pencil? I ask because I can't seem to manage to avoid pixelated effects whenever I work, because the support image is already so small. I use Gimp. And what about, for example, the hatchet or the water bottle. Did you import models and draw on them or draw them from scratch (there comes my first question again).

PS: I love the mocassin :w00t:
[CENTER]« Quel pays ! Quels hommes ! Quelle guerre ! Non, ma chère maman, votre enfant n'est pas fait pour habiter cette contrée barbare. »
[/CENTER]
[CENTER] Louis-Antoine de Bougainville, 1758
[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Image
[/CENTER]

[CENTER][color=DarkGreen]WIA 1.05 Patch[/color]
[/CENTER]


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PANGI
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:03 pm

TiFlo wrote:Yeah. And you like it, don't you? ;)


Well, not actually making you happy :D (sorry), but like this barbie-like redressing uniforms. It's weird. It's something from young boy with tin soldiers in me possible...

TiFlo wrote:It is indeed hard to have to discard one or another. I'd suggest keeping #1 and #4. I'm not sure if you can distribute JSGME alongside your pack (wonderful tool BTW, I've used it for some time with Silent Hunter 3), but if it is so, and provided the instructions are clear enough, several packs can be made available to public, and players can install/uninstall them at will depending on what scenario they are playing (regulars wearing white gaiters and different French regiments, as well as your early 18th cent. units). What do you think?


Yes. It's great thing for modders (also playing Silen Hunter). Possibly i'll release more versions of different highlanders. As you said before, making new models (for game mechanics i mean - not graphic) is tremendous work so there is no help than overwrighting files (i'm courius about Hobbes scenarios). Anyway it will be fine to have more models (for example i would like to have right grenadiers for royal americans and highlanders - but after time i think the thing with correct facing colors for all regiments is somehow against the game...i left this idea)

TiFlo wrote:Now, onto my usual nitpicking, which will be my last for this beautiful guy. Would you be able to move the cartridge pouch up to the same level as the belly belt? Actually, I understand that we have the same model for #4, so I'll risk asking even more. :D Are you still here? Thank you. What about removing all trace of the white laces on his coat (#4), as well as the yellow regimental sleeves?


Yes. You have the point and i know about all these faultiness. In my laziness the cartridge pouch was intended to be sporran. The light version of coat (without lace and facings) for that later versions of him is definitely considering. I must say that i like the n.5 with your blanket rather than n.4...

TiFlo wrote:I'll spare you the adding of some leather patches, although it is very hard to refrain from asking.


Dont understand...

TiFlo wrote:On a side note, what program are you using? And do you have a digital pencil? I ask because I can't seem to manage to avoid pixelated effects whenever I work, because the support image is already so small. I use Gimp. And what about, for example, the hatchet or the water bottle. Did you import models and draw on them or draw them from scratch (there comes my first question again).


I'm using Adobe Photoshop. Dont have digital pencil - using mouse. Water bottle (you recognize?), broadsword, grenadier mitre and maybe so... was all cut out and resize from various pictures from web. But im trying to make them from material from other models in WIA graphic directory (the hatchet for example is originaly from french marine boy) so cut and paste work.

...and sorry to all about my poor english

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Hobbes
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:41 pm

Aesthetically, #1 and #2 are my favourites.

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TiFlo
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:27 pm

There is only one model for grenadiers / light infantry in game. More can be added, but it is really time consuming, as it involves working with the excel database. But the option exists.

Yeah, how lazy of you. Putting the cartridge pouch in place of the sporran... :D No, seriously, that was a good idea, but the sporran was abandoned during that era, and only used again toward the end of the 18th Century. But it does not hurt the eyes, the pouch can stay there if you don't want to do it all over again :thumbsup:

Leather patches = On the Highlander you (we) use as a model for wilderness dress, the brown pieces of leather sawed on the elbows of the coat.

Actually, the copy / paste method is the only one I've had success with too... I should follow your lead and try scanning my books and use that material.

Also, as Hobbes, you and I seem to have different tastes, I propose (offer?) to take care of the packaging and to make different combinations. That way, everyone will be pleased. Deal?
[CENTER]« Quel pays ! Quels hommes ! Quelle guerre ! Non, ma chère maman, votre enfant n'est pas fait pour habiter cette contrée barbare. »
[/CENTER]
[CENTER] Louis-Antoine de Bougainville, 1758
[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Image
[/CENTER]

[CENTER][color=DarkGreen]WIA 1.05 Patch[/color]
[/CENTER]


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PANGI
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:37 pm

TiFlo wrote:There is only one model for grenadiers / light infantry in game. More can be added, but it is really time consuming, as it involves working with the excel database. But the option exists.


Yeah. That i've called tremendous work.

TiFlo wrote:Yeah, how lazy of you. Putting the cartridge pouch in place of the sporran... :D No, seriously, that was a good idea, but the sporran was abandoned during that era, and only used again toward the end of the 18th Century. But it does not hurt the eyes, the pouch can stay there if you don't want to do it all over again :thumbsup:


last one...
Image
...and no more highlanders in next 5 years... :wacko:

TiFlo wrote:Also, as Hobbes, you and I seem to have different tastes, I propose (offer?) to take care of the packaging and to make different combinations. That way, everyone will be pleased. Deal?


Dont know. So far is the only problem highlander. As i said my intentions was to release number 1 in my pack and relase one of the others as addition (or maybe all of them).

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Hobbes
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:01 pm

I think the two of you get the best from this with the banter you have. Great fun reading the thread. I would love to use #2 in Pontiac's War but I will be happy to use whatever model you decide you are happiest with Pangi.

I would also like to use my version of your Marine model in King William's War (unless you feel like updating him further).

Image

This is the mdl_FRA_* version but I have no idea how to make the Army_FRA_* and Unit_FRA_* from this model. Is it an easy thing to explain how to do this using GIMP? If not I will have a play around with it. I'm sure I will work out how to do it but thought I may as well ask in case I can get any pointers.

Thanks, Chris
Attachments
Marine2.png

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PANGI
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:16 pm

It's up to you Hobbes. I'll release whatever i have for your scenarios.

About the french guy: And you dont like my version with belt? :) There is army and unit files in the pack...i remember i've tryed to make open coat but it does look odd.

Im making army files so that i resize the mdl file to 55% and sharper it. unit file im making mostly completely new - sometimes (if it is possible) i make unit file first -> resize it and apply to mdl -> than whole thing resize to army...never working with GIMP, i can tell you procedure in Photoshop (but i think it is similar - buttons maybe have different names and places - dont know...)

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TiFlo
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:20 pm

@ Hobbes

As PANGI said, the easy way to do for the 2 other files is simply a resize / cut to the right dimension of the one already done. The procedure is identical in Photoshop and The Gimp. Do you need a hand?

EDIT:
last one...
Image
...and no more highlanders in next 5 years... :wacko:
:laugh: :rofl:
[size=-1]"I was wrestlin' wolves back when ya were at yer mother's teat!!" Scottish pride at its best :D [/size]
[CENTER]« Quel pays ! Quels hommes ! Quelle guerre ! Non, ma chère maman, votre enfant n'est pas fait pour habiter cette contrée barbare. »
[/CENTER]
[CENTER] Louis-Antoine de Bougainville, 1758
[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Image
[/CENTER]

[CENTER][color=DarkGreen]WIA 1.05 Patch[/color]
[/CENTER]


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Hobbes
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Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:06 am

Thanks chaps, I'll have a play around with it in the next week or so.

I like the version with the belt - but I'm just trying to get the image as close as I can to the 1700 Marine I posted.

Cheers, Chris

tagwyn
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Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:20 pm

French unis were white, not blue. So I've been adbvised. t

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PANGI
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Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:21 pm

tagwyn wrote:French unis were white, not blue. So I've been adbvised. t


Ok...im afraid that im not absolute sure what was intention about this note. I'll try to be polite...

Youre right. As i know the main color of french line infantry was grey-white...and red for swiss and irish units, blue for swedish, german and scottish units - were talking about infantry (line).

The absolute new chapter is the cavalry of course. Here units were so colorful that avoids any attempt to generalities about color...

so my 2 cents...

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PANGI
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Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:30 pm

tagwyn wrote:French unis were white, not blue. So I've been adbvised. t


It isn't proper to don't answer. I tried but i can't...

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TiFlo
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Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:18 am

I was going to leave it to Hobbes, but I guess I can jump in.

18th Century French army uniform were indeed "white". But not of plain bright white, and not always white either. In fact, it would range from plain white (mind you, wool would only give you a whitish color, sort of a dirtied white) to plain grey, depending on the regiment. As long as it looked white from afar, and that regimental facings where complying with regulation, it was fine. On the other hand, as officers often got to have their own uniform tailored, they would have them made with better quality fabric. Those would probably be the only true white uniforms you could see on the field.

Now, if I get what you mean, I'm assuming you're referring to the blueish color of Hobbes' 17th Century soldier's coat, right? If so, I do actually see it greyish as well (with a little effort, but it doesn't make me blind either). If this is about the regimental facings being blue, see my explanation in the first paragraph. If this is about the pants and socks, those would sometimes follow the regimental colors.

Does that shed some light on the matter?
[CENTER]« Quel pays ! Quels hommes ! Quelle guerre ! Non, ma chère maman, votre enfant n'est pas fait pour habiter cette contrée barbare. »
[/CENTER]
[CENTER] Louis-Antoine de Bougainville, 1758
[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Image
[/CENTER]

[CENTER][color=DarkGreen]WIA 1.05 Patch[/color]
[/CENTER]


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PANGI
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Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:57 am

The problem was, that i wasnt completely sure what was intent about this note...

yeah. French regiments were grey-white, but irish and swiss units wore red, german, swedish and scottish units blue (still talking about army of the fleur-de-lis to not confused somebody) - and thats only line infantry.

Cavarly is whole new chapter.

i think quite good and traditional source to find out about it is Lucien Mouillard:

http://pfef.free.fr/Anc_Reg/Unif_Org/Mouillard/mouillard.htm

TiFlo wrote:I'm assuming you're referring to the blueish color of Hobbes' 17th Century soldier's coat, right? If so, I do actually see it greyish as well (with a little effort, but it doesn't make me blind either).


It's grey- believe me. No saturation here. The blueish aura is only optical illusion.

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arsan
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Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:46 am

Hi guys!
Don't bother... Tagwyn likes to post random nonsense one liners around. :blink:
Just ignore...
He is like a living spam bot ;)

Keep up your great work!! :coeurs: :coeurs:

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PANGI
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Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:00 am

arsan wrote:Don't bother... Tagwyn likes to post random nonsense one liners around. :blink:


nothing against him :)

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Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:18 am

arsan wrote:He is like a living spam bot ;)


:thumbsup: :mdr:
Image

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TiFlo
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Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:05 pm

:rolleyes: ... anyway.

Hey PANGI, I just noticed you updated your pack. Great, just in time to launch my 1759 campaign!

[SIZE="1"]How is your plain red highlander coat coming?[/size]
[CENTER]« Quel pays ! Quels hommes ! Quelle guerre ! Non, ma chère maman, votre enfant n'est pas fait pour habiter cette contrée barbare. »
[/CENTER]
[CENTER] Louis-Antoine de Bougainville, 1758
[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Image
[/CENTER]

[CENTER][color=DarkGreen]WIA 1.05 Patch[/color]
[/CENTER]


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Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:22 pm

PANGI wrote:Image
...and no more highlanders in next 5 years... :wacko:

I want that model image ingame!! :w00t:
:D
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PANGI
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Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:25 am

TiFlo wrote: :rolleyes: ... anyway.

Hey PANGI, I just noticed you updated your pack. Great, just in time to launch my 1759 campaign!

[SIZE="1"]How is your plain red highlander coat coming?[/size]


Yeah...in 1759 scenario i observed one problem. In expedition against Quebec, there are group of called provisionals which have marines appearance - but the game marines are from AIW era. But i have no idea how look british marines in seven years war. Has anybody a good reference?

:) [SIZE="1"]hardly. i must find a way which would be more easier. pssst...ive badly cut oneself on my right hand - no this is not a joke im only making myself interesting. but i think it wont stop me.[/size] :cool: :D

Generalisimo wrote:I want that model image ingame!! :w00t:
:D


wait for 1st april :D

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TiFlo
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Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:34 pm

PANGI wrote:Yeah...in 1759 scenario i observed one problem. In expedition against Quebec, there are group of called provisionals which have marines appearance - but the game marines are from AIW era. But i have no idea how look british marines in seven years war. Has anybody a good reference?

For the British?
From the establishment of a permanent corps of Marine Regiments in 1755 to 1802, red coats with white facings were worn. The normal headdress was a tricorn (later bicorne hat and the overall appearance closely resembled that of the Army's Regiments of Foot.

Information from Royal Marines Online. According to this, you could simply use the model of a regular British soldier, change the regimental colours to white, and you're done :)

:) [SIZE="1"]hardly. i must find a way which would be more easier. pssst...ive badly cut oneself on my right hand - no this is not a joke im only making myself interesting. but i think it wont stop me.[/size] :cool: :D

Your left hand is still there. Get back to work! ;)
[CENTER]« Quel pays ! Quels hommes ! Quelle guerre ! Non, ma chère maman, votre enfant n'est pas fait pour habiter cette contrée barbare. »
[/CENTER]
[CENTER] Louis-Antoine de Bougainville, 1758
[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Image
[/CENTER]

[CENTER][color=DarkGreen]WIA 1.05 Patch[/color]
[/CENTER]


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PANGI
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Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:40 pm


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TiFlo
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Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:45 pm

Well, I have that picture, but according to the website I posted, the marines with grenadier-like cap would be those form the 1740's regulation :
The dress of the ten Regiments of Marines raised for service between 1739 and 1748 is well documented in the coloured illustrations of the official 1742 Clothing Book. All wore red coats and breeches with mitre style caps. Facings, buttons and lace varied according to the regiment.
Now, it is possible that the transition between grenadier caps / regimental facings and tricorne / all-white facings didn't take place at once, and that by 1759 a few units still wore the old style uniform.

Again, you're the artist, you chose ;)

PS: speedy recovery for your hand :)
[CENTER]« Quel pays ! Quels hommes ! Quelle guerre ! Non, ma chère maman, votre enfant n'est pas fait pour habiter cette contrée barbare. »
[/CENTER]
[CENTER] Louis-Antoine de Bougainville, 1758
[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Image
[/CENTER]

[CENTER][color=DarkGreen]WIA 1.05 Patch[/color]
[/CENTER]


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PANGI
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Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:56 pm

Yes. It fits also to this picture from osprey.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u315/Jafuet/marines.png

(id like to see the 1742 clothing book) EDIT: found it! http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchresult.cfm?parent_id=293136&word=

But the website ive posted exactly specified this type of uniform to 1755-1765. I dont know what to think. Your version sounds realistic, but if i understand good there weren't any marine corps during peace years until 1755 so i suppose after canceling in 1748 they had to be redressed in 1755. The site youve posted says "normal" headdress was a tricorn, which maybe says that it was worn but not ordered...dont know

just now i remembered that the redcoats from Pirates of the Caribbean which i considered as costumer's vagary maybe have some resemblance to the marine corps from 1755 :(

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