1791 Fallen Timbers report

[Carnium]

Hare is the promised report for the 1791 Fallen Timbers scenario with a fresh installation of WiA, patched to 1.4 and default settings.

Natives
- Indian leaders often get locked which is slowing their progress in this campaign as they must react quickly in order to win this scenario
- it happened a couple of times that the natives were "teleported" to their winter quarters when they were guarding a strategic city or on a "warpath".
WAD/bug/feature/engine limitation ?
- Red Fork Village is unguarded/empty. WAD or bug ?
- Native AI likes to attack Pittsburgh.Is there a reason for that as it is not an objective or strategic city.


USA
- early leaders get locked a bit too often.Maybe it would be better to have them un-activated instead as suddenly locked leader in the middle of a siege is a bit weird.
- could Legion of USA be formed only if the USA side is actually losing?
- can/could the US player win by simply destroying natives villages or must he actually hold them ?


Common things
- all leaders with a sub unit are represented with this unit instead of the leader portrait
- legion of USA formed event news fires twice (1/4 and 2/4)
- there are at least two events (news) in the game with no text (Bill of Rights etc)
- PA Middle states region (river) is blocked in this scenario. WAD or bug ?

[Rafiki]

Great feedback, Carnium

(Moved this to the "Help improve WIA"-forum, since these mostly aren't related to bugs and technical issues)

[lodilefty]

Hare is the promised report for the 1791 Fallen Timbers scenario with a fresh installation of WiA, patched to 1.4 and default settings.

Natives
- Indian leaders often get locked which is slowing their progress in this campaign as they must react quickly in order to win this scenario
- it happened a couple of times that the natives were "teleported" to their winter quarters when they were guarding a strategic city or on a "warpath".
WAD/bug/feature/engine limitation ?
- Red Fork Village is unguarded/empty. WAD or bug ?
- Native AI likes to attack Pittsburgh.Is there a reason for that as it is not an objective or strategic city.

- You must have advanced activation "on". Ratings are such that leaders get locked in enemy controlled regions. Natives gain control eventually...
- Winter, natives: "hmm, getting cold. Time to go home". These are loose affiliations of tribal warriors. Such is life
- Red Fork is WAD. The idea is for the 'settlers' nearby to go there and settle. Then get massacred.....
- Pittsburg has a depot and a fort. "hey, let's go burn a depot! That otta be fun!" {Will look at lowering the AI interest in Pittburgh}

USA
- early leaders get locked a bit too often.Maybe it would be better to have them un-activated instead as suddenly locked leader in the middle of a siege is a bit weird.
- could Legion of USA be formed only if the USA side is actually losing?
- can/could the US player win by simply destroying natives villages or must he actually hold them ?

- Advanced activation. The interpretation of the history seems to be that a lot of hesstitancy and bumbling went on before Mad Anthony Wayne got sent to finish the job...
- good idea on the legion. will look
- destroying villages. there are events that remove the VP for settlements if burned. maybe we should award some VP for burning indian villages too. good idea! {Holding the ones that are Objectives or strategic towns/villages already gains VP for owner}

Common things
- all leaders with a sub unit are represented with this unit instead of the leader portrait
- legion of USA formed event news fires twice (1/4 and 2/4)
- there are at least two events (news) in the game with no text (Bill of Rights etc)
- PA Middle states region (river) is blocked in this scenario. WAD or bug ?

- erf. We learned how to avoid the 'hidden leader' after this scenario was completed. will fix [tech speak: in the DB, when defining combination units, put the leader last, not first. go figure ]
- will look at double legion event
- it would help immensly if you specified the exact event name string that appears without text
[color="Blue"]Edit: Bill of Rights is a 'line message', should be no pop up text....[/color]
- Most of PA is WAD to be blocked. Which river region is bothering you?

Great feedback! Stay tuned

[Carnium]

- You must have advanced activation "on". Ratings are such that leaders get locked in enemy controlled regions. Natives gain control eventually...
- Pittsburg has a depot and a fort. "hey, let's go burn a depot! That otta be fun!" {Will look at lowering the AI interest in Pittburgh}

- I am testing the scenarios with default rules as most players would probably just start the scenarios as they are without changing anything.Is there a way to have an option for usage of "suggested settings" for different scenarios.As we know many scenarios need different settings to actually work as designed.
- Natives were attacking Pittsburgh like crazy with units with great numerical disadvantage to mine.Like 700+ natives vs 2000+ US defenders.Pure suicide....

- Advanced activation. The interpretation of the history seems to be that a lot of hesstitancy and bumbling went on before Mad Anthony Wayne got sent to finish the job...
- good idea on the legion. will look
- destroying villages. there are events that remove the VP for settlements if burned. maybe we should award some VP for burning indian villages too. good idea! {Holding the ones that are Objectives or strategic towns/villages already gains VP for owner}

- the only problem with that is that the natives have no chance to actually defeat US forces at the start in the campaign if they are in the forts and cities as the native units are not particular good at sieges,plus they often get unactivated at default settings which results in a slow progress or no progress for the natives at all.
- I was suggesting this because I was clearly winning the scenario even without the legion and was quite surprised when I got the event that the legion was formed because of the defeat of militia.
- holding Indian villages is probably not worthwhile as they provide almost no supplies and a "normal" army would starve to death there. Happened to me a couple of times...Burning the villages should do the trick as the US army historically probably did just that.

- will look at double legion event
- Most of PA is WAD to be blocked. Which river region is bothering you?

- this is just a double news about event.Nothing major.
- aha, thats done on purpose to avoid transportation of the troops by the sea.Seems logical, was just checking

[arsan]

Hi Carnium!

So you have hardened activation selected by default after installing the game?
I recall the first version of the full WIA executable had this problem and soon was uploaded a new full install file with the standard activation option preselected (i believe is the one you get now when you buy the game.
Could it be that you bought the WIA game very soon and got the original full install file??
The standard activation setting of WIA (and the rest of the AGEOD games) should be the middle one: Unactivated leaders have penalties but do not become locked.
Great work with the scenarios testing!

Regards!

[Carnium]

Hi Carnium!

So you have hardened activation selected by default after installing the game?
I recall the first version of the full WIA executable had this problem and soon was uploaded a new full install file with the standard activation option preselected (i believe is the one you get now when you buy the game.
Could it be that you bought the WIA game very soon and got the original full install file??
The standard activation setting of WIA (and the rest of the AGEOD games) should be the middle one: Unactivated leaders have penalties but do not become locked.
Great work with the scenarios testing!

Regards!

Hm, not sure will have to check later today.
My previous game was progressively patched from 1.00 till 1.3 and then to 1.4 and had no "give weapons to natives option" in 1812 scenario so I had to do a clean reinstall and have patched it directly to 1.4.
Regards!

[arsan]

Hi!

The problem with this hardened activation option wrongly selected as default is that it cannot be changed by patches as it is stored on the settings file which also stores your serial number and is not changed by patches.

So if your WIA full install version is the from first days after it was put on sele you will have this little problem.
Hopefully is easely solved. You only have to remember to click on the normal activation option after doing a full reinstall.
The rest of the people who bought the game after some days/weeks of the release will have a full install file with the right options defaults

Regards!

[Carnium]

Hi!

The problem with this hardened activation option wrongly selected as default is that it cannot be changed by patches as it is stored on the settings file which also stores your serial number and is not changed by patches.

So if your WIA full install version is the from first days after it was put on sele you will have this little problem.
Hopefully is easely solved. You only have to remember to click on the normal activation option after doing a full reinstall.
The rest of the people who bought the game after some days/weeks of the release will have a full install file with the right options defaults

Regards!

Hello.
Interesting.Usually I change the settings myself to give the AI a little boost in detection and activation, but this time I wanted to play the "vanilla" settings.
I must be lucky by supporting AGEOD instanly when a games comes out
Can I get the link to the already patched vanilla installer somewhere (PM me please)
Regards and thanks for the info!

[Carnium]

A little report about this scenario with the latest version of the community mod.
Played as the natives and lost by one point .. bah
- Natives are still green on the mini map and therefore invisible
- both native leaders get unactivated every second turn and are therefore completely useless.Can something be done about it, as the scenario description reads that the natives have good leadership.
I was actually forced to use my natives without the leaders because it got me nowhere with them.Becoming unactivated when in a siege ?? No thanks
- US is a bit too aggressive and likes to attack a bit too much (also just before winter)
- US side attacked Delaware village and have unlocked the British units and Caldwell.To my surprises there was no message about British entry into the war and the British units in FT. Detroit reminded locked.Is this WAD ?
I was sure that this attack would trigger the British units in full i.e. British war entry.
-there EPs in this scenario but you can not use it for anything.Any chance to have something from them like "request weapons from the British" which would be like buying new replacements.

Other things reported before are fixed

[lodilefty]

Thanks!

We'll look at the IND leader parameters...

Hmm, loophole at Delaware Village may exist.The war triggers are only for Ft. Miami and Detroit . Plus we had to do special events for US AI, as Athena has no knowledge of the 'British War Entry' events.....

Will look some more at that dilemma...

Someday, options can be added. Gotta fix bugs first

[Carnium]

Thanks Lodi
One more thing that I forgot.Is that event about British ceding Western territories to the US automatic? Can you prevent it from firing if the British side is at war with USA ?
Caldwell and his unit were "teleported" and locked to Detroit by this event during a siege

[lodilefty]

Thanks Lodi
One more thing that I forgot.Is that event about British ceding Western territories to the US automatic? Can you prevent it from firing if the British side is at war with USA ?
Caldwell and his unit were "teleported" and locked to Detroit by this event during a siege

Jay's Treaty will not occur if British Entry occurs.
British Entry is triggered only by USA violation of Ft. Miami or Detroit.

Hence the dilemma with Delaware village.
Stay tuned. What passes for deep thought is required.

[Carnium]

Jay's Treaty will not occur if British Entry occurs.
British Entry is triggered only by USA violation of Ft. Miami or Detroit.

Hence the dilemma with Delaware village.
Stay tuned. What passes for deep thought is required.

I smell a few changed coming in that department too
Will try the US side if I have enough (free) time this weekend.

[lodilefty]

The Delaware Village dilemma:

It's a VP site [strategic city] whicj attracts the AI
It's a Winter Quarters target
It's a possible location for "Young Warriors"
It isn't really a 'posession' of GBR, any more than any of the Indian Villages

Hence, attacking it doesn't trigger GBR War entry...

Choices:

1. Leave as-is. Rationale is that attacking the GBR troops there is not serious enoughh to trigger full war entry
2. Leave as is, but relocate the GBR troops to Detroit if Attacked, locking them again
3. Change to non-VP site [add another IND village to balance], and hope the AI leaves it alone.
4. Modify GBR presence to be Caldwell only. Think of him as an 'advisor' [VietNam anyone?]. Let him get unlocked by himself...

Anything else gets to be too much tinkering at this time....

I like #4. I absolutely don't like #3

Thoughts?

[Carnium]

#4 if he was really there as an "advisor" or a leader and was active in campaign or #2 if the above statement is not true.

[lodilefty]

#4 if he was really there as an "advisor" or a leader and was active in campaign or #2 if the above statement is not true.

Well, the entire British at War is a 'what if'. No history. Didn't happen AFAIK

Caldwell is rated AngloIndian command, so he got along with them at least [assuming research was properly done]

[Carnium]

Some interesting fact about Caldwell and his Indian son
This site reports:

When in 1794 a large American force under Anthony Wayne advanced towards the Miamis (Maumee) River, Richard G. England*, the commandant at Detroit, sent Caldwell and some 60 volunteers to reinforce Fort Miamis (Maumee, Ohio), while the militia was held in reserve. Near the fort on 20 August, at the battle of Fallen Timbers, Wayne routed the Indians, who retreated behind the cover of a rearguard action fought by the Wyandots and the white volunteers.

Also Wikipedia is mentioning these Canadian volunteers probably lead by Caldwell:

The Indian army, about 1,500 strong, consisted of Blue Jacket's Shawnees and Buckongahelas's Delawares, Miamis led by Little Turtle, Wyandots, Ojibwas, Ottawas, Potawatomis, Mingos, and even some Canadian militia.

So it seems that the British unit in Delaware village is/should be? in fact a Canadian militia unit under Caldwell command.

This Indian leader is missing in this scenario.

[lodilefty]

Some interesting fact about Caldwell and his Indian son
This site reports:


Also Wikipedia is mentioning these Canadian volunteers probably lead by Caldwell:


So it seems that the British unit in Delaware village is/should be? in fact a Canadian militia unit under Caldwell command.

This Indian leader is missing in this scenario.

Caldwell will have his Canadians
They will unlock when attacked, but an attack there will not trigger 'full' British entry...

[Carnium]

Caldwell will have his Canadians
They will unlock when attacked, but an attack there will not trigger 'full' British entry...

Exactly what I had in mind.Its historical and serves the purpose
Any chance to add this Indian leader too ?

[lodilefty]

Exactly what I had in mind.Its historical and serves the purpose
Any chance to add this Indian leader too ?

Oh, maybe