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aryaman
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Question on Consules

Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:29 pm

Hi all
My idea for the scenario is to have the historical consules elected each year, however some of them at least remained as military commanders after the end of their term.
I thought of having Consules as 3star generals, and after their tenure as 2star generals. I would require 2 different units and models for each, right?
I also hope there is a high mortality in combat, otherwise the roman player could end with a lot of leaders in few years.

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PhilThib
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Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:21 pm

It is not difficult to handle at all... you indeed needs a model for each of the ranks (consul *** and proconsul **).. then we can build a very easy script feature that will handle nominations, retirement...

We can make sure that ** former consuls may even be removed after some time to avoid cluttering the ranks... IIRC my Roman history, proconsuls were prolonged usually for 1 year, exceptionally 3, but not much more... we can tweak this easily while we test the scenario :indien:
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GShock
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Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:24 pm

PhilThib wrote:proconsuls were prolonged usually for 1 year, exceptionally 3, but not much more... we can tweak this easily while we test the scenario :indien:


Consules were elected 1 year before taking the imperium of an army and they lasted in charge 1 year and no more. Proconsules were former consules assigned to govern a province.

The imperium of a consul would not be removed only in case he was proclaimed dictator. In this case he would be in charge for no longer than 6 months.

Interesting thing is the fact there had to be 2 Consules and they had to agree on everything.

Yes, this engine would be perfect for such a mod but i would still prefer a Sengoku Jidai mod :niark:

Good luck Arya, if u need help, Roman history and roman laws were my favourite exams at the school of law. :)
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aryaman
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:24 am

PhilThib wrote:It is not difficult to handle at all... you indeed needs a model for each of the ranks (consul *** and proconsul **).. then we can build a very easy script feature that will handle nominations, retirement...

We can make sure that ** former consuls may even be removed after some time to avoid cluttering the ranks... IIRC my Roman history, proconsuls were prolonged usually for 1 year, exceptionally 3, but not much more... we can tweak this easily while we test the scenario :indien:

Sometimes consules stayed in command even if not given any proconsulate, for instance Geminus commanding the infantry at Cannae. Anyway my plan is to have as military commanders only those leaders that are attested as such, I mean not including consules or pretores that for whatever reason remained at Rome.
Sometimes it could become a bit complicated, for instance Fabius Maximus elected dictator in 217 and consul in 215, 214 and 209. For those complicated cases maybe it would be simpler to leave them as leaders for all the period?

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GShock
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:34 am

aryaman wrote:Sometimes it could become a bit complicated, for instance Fabius Maximus elected dictator in 217 and consul in 215, 214 and 209. For those complicated cases maybe it would be simpler to leave them as leaders for all the period?


I presume the same way AACW handles things would do. Only some of the leaders actually get removed though we know some got killed (Johnston for example) while some others retired or got fired (Grant dismissing Butler for example) and so on.

I favor more the historical approach, if you could event-script the spawning of the elected Maximus you could have him retire, then reappear and then disappear anytime you want with turn-based events.

This all depends on the approach. Total history or player controlled...total history would mean events only. Perhaps it's not only better but also easier.
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aryaman
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:13 pm

GShock wrote:Good luck Arya, if u need help, Roman history and roman laws were my favourite exams at the school of law. :)


An inmediate request taking advantage of your offer, what was the legal procedure after a consul was killed in battle? who would take command of his army?

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PhilThib
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:45 pm

In my memory of Roman history, one of the legates was taking over until a new Consul arrived (could last a few weeks to months...).

For instance, during the 2nd PW, that's for example what happened after the Scipio brothers got killed in Spain and until their young nephew arrived to take over... :indien:
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aryaman
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:57 pm

GShock wrote:I presume the same way AACW handles things would do. Only some of the leaders actually get removed though we know some got killed (Johnston for example) while some others retired or got fired (Grant dismissing Butler for example) and so on.

I favor more the historical approach, if you could event-script the spawning of the elected Maximus you could have him retire, then reappear and then disappear anytime you want with turn-based events.

This all depends on the approach. Total history or player controlled...total history would mean events only. Perhaps it's not only better but also easier.


I would like to have as few scripted events as possible, they get easily absurd alog a game. For instance, if the Roman player is not severely defeated in 217 why should Maximus be appointed dictator? I would like to make the appointment of dictator an option for the roman player, he will get a valuable leader and 2 new legions in exchange for a heavy price in NM points, for instance, the option only available in difficult situation.
Another concern with events, Maximus is killed 214, and reelected consul in 209. Those absurds could easily slip through scripted events.
A solution I was thinking about is to have some sort of real elections. For instance to have a pool of leaders and an engine that select 2 of them each year, with killed leaders removed from the pool.

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aryaman
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:03 pm

PhilThib wrote:In my memory of Roman history, one of the legates was taking over until a new Consul arrived (could last a few weeks to months...).

For instance, during the 2nd PW, that's for example what happened after the Scipio brothers got killed in Spain and until their young nephew arrived to take over... :indien:

But the Scipio brothers were not consules at the time...
After Thrasimenus and Cannae a dictator was created, but things are not very clear. In 217 Maximus took command of both consular armies, despit one of the consuls still being alive, in 216 the army was taken over by a praetor, Claudius Marcellus.

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PhilThib
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:21 pm

aryaman wrote:Another concern with events, Maximus is killed 214, and reelected consul in 209. Those absurds could easily slip through scripted events.


It should not happen...because we could make sure to have a check verifying Maximus is still alive...if not, he cannot be re-elected...
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aryaman
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Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:22 pm

The more I gather info the more I have doubts about the leaders system. Praetores and legati were used as military commanders, some of them were consules previously and/or became consules later. It is very intrincated. And what if a leader is killed before he is elected consul? is the game going to have some sort of election system? I am going crazy with all the posibilities :bonk:

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PhilThib
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Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:50 pm

Reminds me of when I was designing Pax Romana.... :siffle: :sourcil:

My best guess is that you work out a list of historical Consuls, plus some "unhistorical" replacements in case they get killed :indien:
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aryaman
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Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:56 am

Another alternative I have been thinking about is to make for the Romans 2star leaders only, without any specific title, they would be just leaders, and they would show up as historically. This scheme has the advantage of simplicity, and besides it has some more flavour, the Romans would be forced to divide their armies into multiple commands, as they did historically, and we could include a good number of historical commanders. it would feel clearly different playing Romans and Carthaginians.

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PhilThib
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Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:38 am

This is possible, but do not forget the problem of CP costs.... most Roman "armies" would end up with a command penalty...(unless you reduce drastically the CP cost of Roman units :siffle: ) :indien:
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aryaman
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Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:59 pm

I would have to do some tries, but I think there would be anough Roman commanders.
I would like to try something different for the Carthaginians, they could have a good number of 3stars and 2 stars generals, but not the ability to form divisions, could be that possible? I mean to have one side able to form divisions and not the other side? If not, it could be implemented by not having 1star generals.
What I want to simulate is the advantage of Romans regarding their organization in Legions, and the disadvantage of not having an stable high command structure

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PhilThib
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Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:04 pm

Two or three stars generals can form divisions, so that would not help to remove the 1-star from Carthage...but the good news is that we can prevent a side from forming divisions, so no problem...we just set the number of "Divisions" of Carthage to zero and that's it.... I guess we can even rename "Divisions" into 'Legions' :indien:
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Pocus
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Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:15 pm

Sound a really cool idea to recycle the division/embedded leader into Legions! :coeurs:
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aryaman
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Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:21 pm

Right now in the setup Roman division leders are unnominated legati (Legatus I, Legatus II), while in Param2 I had divisions called Legio I, Legio II, etc. What would be additionally changed?

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