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aryaman
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List of type of combat units in the mod

Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:25 am

Hi
Here is the list of basic types (models) of combat units in the mod. I am open to suggestions. Every model would represent roughly 400 men.


LIST OF UNITS

a) Romans

1) Hastati:
2) Principes: (High morale ability)
3) Triarii: (bonus vs.cavalry)
4) Rorarii:
5) Equites:
6) Velites: (skirmish ability)

Since 211 BC, Rorarii will be replaced by Velites in the new legions




b) Italics

1) Italic Hoplites (bonus vs.cavalry)
2) Italic Psiloi
3) Italic Infantry:
4) Italic Cavalry:
5) Peltastes (bonus vs.cavalry,skirmish ability)
6) Cretan archers

Italics start the game as Roman allies, but as the loyalty towards Rome is lowered by Carthaginian victories, some will change sides.



c) Carthaginians

1) Punic Hoplites (bonus vs.cavalry)
2) Lybian Spearmen (bonus vs.cavalry)
3) Carthaginian Cavalry
4) African Auxilia
5) Moorish Archers
6) Elephants: 3 Elephants



d) Iberians

1) Celtiberian Scutati (High morale ability)
2) Iberian Caetrati (skirmish ability, bonus vs cavalry)
3) Iberian cavalry
4) Balearic slingers




e) Celts

1) Gallic Swordmen (High morale ability)
2) Celtic Tribemen (ambush ability)
3) Celtic Cavalry:


f) Numidians

1) Numidian Iaculatores
2) Numidian cavalry (skirmish ability, scouting ability, raiders)

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runyan99
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Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:37 am

Looks about right. I take it that d, e and f are to be Carthaginian allies?

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aryaman
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Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:07 am

No, they could be both sides. Historically they fought for both sides at one moment or another. My idea is that players could recruit them depending on the loyalty level of their regions.

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Nikel
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Fri May 30, 2008 12:44 pm

About Moorish Archers, the name moorish is associated with Islam, that appeared centuries later

According to the wikipedia:

"Although the Moors came to be associated with Muslims, the name Moor pre-dates Islam. It derives from the small Numidian Kingdom of Maure of the third century BC in what is now Morocco.[2] The name came to be applied to people of the entire region. "They were called Maurisi by the Greeks," wrote Strabo, "and Mauri by the Romans"

Strabo, Geographica (c.17 A.D.) at XVIII,3,ii (cited by Rene Basset in Moorish Literature (N.Y., Collier 1901) at iii.


So perhaps is it better Mauri?



Well, this is just an excuse to ask, how is going this mod? :niark:

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aryaman
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Fri May 30, 2008 12:57 pm

Mauri would be indeed better, I selected Moorish because the word Mauri is probably a bit too academic...but we still can change that

The mod is going very well, thanks. I hope we start testing in a couple of weeks or so

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arsan
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Fri May 30, 2008 1:01 pm

Maybe is too late to ask/suggest but... :innocent:

1 - What are the Numidian Iaculatores??? The name looks maybe too roman/latin.

2- Why the Iberian Caetrati has bonus versus cavalry? I thought they were light infantry armed just with sword, small shield and some javelins... :bonk:

I'm very interested in this mod!
Keep on with your great work!! :coeurs: :coeurs:
Regards!

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aryaman
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Fri May 30, 2008 2:13 pm

1) Iacuatores is a general latin word that means "skirmishers", Livy uses the expresion "Numidian Iaculatores" always when he talks about the Numidian infantry

2) The Caetrati carried one spear besides the javelins, like the late Peltastes

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GShock
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Fri May 30, 2008 2:39 pm

This mod will be a top download, i'm positive....it's another unneeded proof of the potential of the Age Engine. With so many conflicts and so many theaters in mankind's history, the only limit is the imagination...and there...it would also be possible to make an intergalactic scenario...

Do u have a map draft to show us?
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aryaman
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Fri May 30, 2008 2:46 pm

The map is that of NCP, there will be some graphic changes, the problem is that I have no graphic abilities at all, so if anyone with those volunteer for a bit of work, that would be wonderful :innocent:

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arsan
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Fri May 30, 2008 6:07 pm

aryaman wrote:1) Iacuatores is a general latin word that means "skirmishers", Livy uses the expresion "Numidian Iaculatores" always when he talks about the Numidian infantry

2) The Caetrati carried one spear besides the javelins, like the late Peltastes


Thanks for answering!
1 - It's not a big thing, but in my humble opinion, using a latin word as the name of a non latin/roman units seems a little strange. To me "Numidian light infantry" or "Numidian Skirmishers" would sound better :innocent:

2- Didn't know it :bonk: Too much Rome Total War playing time for me :niark:

Another question... how will be legions represented on the game?? will they have some "special" capacity becasue of his high organization/versatility?
like divisions maybe? :siffle:

And... will be Greeks (Sicily, Masillia...) represented on the game?

Regards!

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GShock
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Fri May 30, 2008 8:43 pm

I don't know how it will work and if it is intended to be played as multifaction or in pbem with 1vs many (rome vs all the other human players) but i think Arsan is right in either case.
All unit names should be in english or each unit type should have its native language name. As he said, by setting them all in Latin the players who will eventually play that faction won't like it much to see it called with the name the enemy gave it.
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Nikel
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Fri May 30, 2008 8:45 pm

aryaman wrote:The map is that of NCP, there will be some graphic changes, the problem is that I have no graphic abilities at all, so if anyone with those volunteer for a bit of work, that would be wonderful :innocent:



Have tou read what Pocus and PhilThib commented about this?

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showpost.php?p=83213&postcount=10



By the way, will you include some siege and naval units?


Another possible unit, macedonian trooper, heavy infantry (phalanx)

Sources opinion about this matter seems to be variable.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/291827

Hannibal persuaded Phillip to join in the fight vs Rome, but with little result. From what I have read in the forum, some events are random. Perhaps it is possible a random event, so that some macedonian troops join carthaginian side.

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PhilThib
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Fri May 30, 2008 9:15 pm

I believe that some one with basic graphics abilities could quickly and easily make for you the 20+ or so units you need... that will help playtesting...

Customizing the interface is slightly more complex, but not that much because once you have decided about the look and texture, you have 'just' to adapt the existing ones from NCP
Image

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arsan
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Fri May 30, 2008 9:22 pm

GShock wrote:I don't know how it will work and if it is intended to be played as multifaction or in pbem with 1vs many (rome vs all the other human players) but i think Arsan is right in either case.
All unit names should be in english or each unit type should have its native language name. As he said, by setting them all in Latin the players who will eventually play that faction won't like it much to see it called with the name the enemy gave it.


Now that i think of it... caetrati, Scutati... are also latin names used on non latin units... but this does not sound bad to me.
Probably because i'm used to them form other games/books.
So i´m not sure about the Iacuatores anymore :bonk: :niark:

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aryaman
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:50 pm

Nikel wrote:Hannibal persuaded Phillip to join in the fight vs Rome, but with little result. From what I have read in the forum, some events are random. Perhaps it is possible a random event, so that some macedonian troops join carthaginian side.


The 1st Macedonian War will be included as an event, so that the Roman player is presented with the option of support his Greek allies with money and conscripts, historically the Romans sent one legion and some 50 warships.
No Macedonian troops in the game.

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aryaman
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:54 pm

GShock wrote:I don't know how it will work and if it is intended to be played as multifaction or in pbem with 1vs many (rome vs all the other human players) but i think Arsan is right in either case.
All unit names should be in english or each unit type should have its native language name. As he said, by setting them all in Latin the players who will eventually play that faction won't like it much to see it called with the name the enemy gave it.


Roman vs Carthaginian 1vs1
Our sources for the 2nd Punic War are either Latin or Greek, I prefer using Latin because it is easier to transcribe and I am following mainly Livius narrative as it is the more complete one.
The same for personal names, I use Hamilcar, for instance, Hm Melkart or any similar transcription sounds really odd I think

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aryaman
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:04 pm

On units
To be precised, units in the game are composed of models, and they can bear names different from the type of unit they are, an example
Unit: Insubres I
That is a unit of Insubres, a celtic tribe of Northern Italy that fought mainly for the Carthaginians. The unit is a Gallic Sordmen unit, and the icon in the main screen will show a fierce Gallic warrior with a long sword, shield, helmet and mail, however the unit is composed of 4 subunits (models) 2 swordmen and 2 tribemen (representing the lower class warriors serving with them)

Most units are composed units.

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Pocus
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:17 pm

aryaman wrote:Roman vs Carthaginian 1vs1
Our sources for the 2nd Punic War are either Latin or Greek, I prefer using Latin because it is easier to transcribe and I am following mainly Livius narrative as it is the more complete one.
The same for personal names, I use Hamilcar, for instance, Hm Melkart or any similar transcription sounds really odd I think


That's what they did in Europa Barbarorum, and although it is perhaps more historical, I think it is not the best idea they have. Carthaginians generals are almost unrecognizable eg.
Image


Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

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GShock
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:40 pm

I suppose one scenario will do for the testing phase...
I'm sorry but i keep disagreeing with the latin names principles.

Can't wait to see this! :)

BTW, what's the English for Hastatii ? :) :) :)

I suppose you're right...lol
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Nikel
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:45 pm

Thanks for the answer aryaman ;)

No macedonian troops? But was Livy who said there were macedonians in Zama, was he not? I was not talking about a faction, but as units on the roman side, as spanish-english in the PW.


IMHO the name of places, people and units in latin is a must :siffle:

There is an encyclopedic series of books on classical knowledge from XIX century by the english scholar William Smith

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Smith_%28lexicographer%29


The Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, in 3 vols, reference for people historical or not. Can be searched here

http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/

And available for download and search too (OCR files), Djvu format recomended, here

http://www.archive.org/details/dictionaryofgre01smituoft
http://www.archive.org/details/dictionaryofgree02smituoft
http://www.archive.org/details/dictionaryofgree03smituoft


The dictionary of Greek and Roman geography, in 2 vols, reference for places, for download here

http://www.archive.org/details/dictionaryofgree01smituoft
http://www.archive.org/details/dictionaryofgrromgeo02smituoft


And the dictionary of Greek and Roman antiquities in 1 vol, reference for things

http://www.archive.org/details/dictionaryofgree00anthuoft


Note that the books are really huge, but perhaps you can find something useful there :cwboy:

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aryaman
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Nikel wrote:
No macedonian troops? But was Livy who said there were macedonians in Zama, was he not? I was not talking about a faction, but as units on the roman side, as spanish-english in the PW.



Yes, in the Carthaginian side, but the report is considered to be just an invention in order to add justification for the 2nd Macedonian War. The decissive point is that Polybius is silent about those Macedonians.

Many thanks for the links, very interesting

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aryaman
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:00 pm

GShock wrote:I suppose one scenario will do for the testing phase...
I'm sorry but i keep disagreeing with the latin names principles.



I am not adamant about latin names, I use, for instance, Lybian Spearmen instead of Longchophoroi (the word used by Polybius) or African pedites, I try to use descriptive and not too obscure words. Iaculatores is probably the more difficult :)

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Nikel
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:12 pm

Yes, you are right, carthaginian, not roman!

Polybius' Histories are in this place too, several editions, but Loeb series facing original greek and english translation is the best

http://www.archive.org/details/historieswitheng01poly

http://www.archive.org/details/historieswitheng02poly

http://www.archive.org/details/historieswitheng03poly



I prefer Longchophoroi to Lybian Spearmen :p leure:

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aryaman
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:12 pm

arsan wrote:Another question... how will be legions represented on the game?? will they have some "special" capacity becasue of his high organization/versatility?
like divisions maybe? :siffle:

And... will be Greeks (Sicily, Masillia...) represented on the game?

Regards!

Forgot to answer those interesting questions

1) The idea is to have 2 very different style of play for both sides, the Romans will have only 2star leaders, but they will have legiones and Alae (equivalent to divisions) while the Carthaginians will have several 3star generals but they will not have the chance to create divisions. Some Carthaginian generals will have the trait "multinational" so that they will command Barbarian allies and mercs without penalty

2) Yes they will, but their units are included in the "Italic" nation. They will deploy hoplites, peltastes and militia

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aryaman
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:14 pm

Nikel wrote:Yes, you are right, carthaginian, not roman!

Polybius' Histories are in this place too, several editions, but Loeb series facing original greek and english translation is the best

http://www.archive.org/details/historieswitheng01poly

http://www.archive.org/details/historieswitheng02poly

http://www.archive.org/details/historieswitheng03poly



I prefer Longchophoroi to Lybian Spearmen :p leure:


Don´t trust Loeb!
The Loeb translates Longchophoroi as "pikemen", something that has caused endless troubles to wargamers :)

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Nikel
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:44 pm


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aryaman
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Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:39 am

Nikel wrote:aryaman, who are you!? :cwboy: How do you know so many things, have you studied Classics (has estudiado Filología Clásica)?

In the Smith dictionary Lonche is like Hasta. If you read the Hasta entry, Lonche is a kind of it

http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-dgra/0594.html

And so Longchophoroi should be lancers?


In the Liddell Greek lexicon it has several entries including lance, spear, javelin :niark:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout.reflang=greek;layout.refembed=2;layout.refwordcount=1;layout.refdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057;layout.reflookup=lo%2Fgxh;layout.refcit=entry%3Dlogxai%3Dos;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2363784

loncho-phoros, spearman, pikeman

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout.reflang=greek;layout.refembed=2;layout.refwordcount=1;layout.refdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057;layout.reflookup=logxofo%2Fros;layout.refcit=entry%3Dlogxhfo%2Fros;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2363798


Spearmen is the correct one, when Polybius speak about pikemen he says Phalanx or "armed as Macedonians".

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caranorn
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Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:37 pm

Just as a note, I should be able to do the unit graphics. As far as I can tell that's 27 pictures so far. Though I don't see any ships listed which I expect would have to be added. Also leader pics (I expect mostly generic ones for each factions)...

I don't have my entire history book collection at hand right now, so I can't start drawing right away. But I can start planning. Is this list of units more or less complete and up to date?
Marc aka Caran...

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Generalisimo
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Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:48 am

caranorn wrote:Just as a note, I should be able to do the unit graphics. As far as I can tell that's 27 pictures so far. Though I don't see any ships listed which I expect would have to be added. Also leader pics (I expect mostly generic ones for each factions)...

I don't have my entire history book collection at hand right now, so I can't start drawing right away. But I can start planning. Is this list of units more or less complete and up to date?

Well, the project is [color="Blue"]ON HOLD[/color] right now, but if you want to start working on those units, it will be great.

Thanks.
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tyrex
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Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:07 pm

Generalisimo wrote:Well, the project is [color="Blue"]ON HOLD[/color] right now, but if you want to start working on those units, it will be great.

Thanks.


Well don't as many units and factions will change and some will appear when the project will start again (waiting for the diplomatic module)

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