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PhilThib
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Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:15 pm

You do not need the diplomatic module to start working on models and units ;) :cool:
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tyrex
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Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:48 am

I'm collecting all informations I need. But I've trouble with some gallics units and with the Illyrians.
end of month could I have a first shot with a list of units. For the model...well I'm not an infographist so it will be a bit difficult

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PhilThib
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Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:57 am

Models are NOT graphics file, they are excel files with the various 'sub-components' of the military (units) used in the game...

A game UNIT is made of 1+ MODELS... like you need bricks to build a wall :cool:
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tyrex
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Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:35 am

As for now here's the first modifications to the list

LIST OF UNITS

a) Romans

1) Hastati:
2) Principes: (High morale ability)
3) Triarii: (bonus vs.cavalry)
4) Rorarii: will diseappear for velites grade 1; skirmish ability
5) Equites:
6) Velites: (skirmish ability) an upgrade of velites grade 1 to reflect the "professionalisation" of those folks
7) Volones: this were slaves legions raised after Cannae
8) Tarentines: light cavalry of dubious quality..very few will be availaible




b) Italics change of name. Will be Socii

1) Italic Hoplites (bonus vs.cavalry) will disappear as never used by Rome
2) Italic Psiloi change to velites socii
3) Italic Infantry:
4) Italic Cavalry:
5) Peltastes (bonus vs.cavalry,skirmish ability) will disappear
6) Cretan archers very few and very expensive as Rome don't used them much

Socii will never switched sides but have a morale of their own and can defect Rome



c) Carthaginians

1) Punic Hoplites (bonus vs.cavalry) can not go out of Poenic territory
2) Lybian Spearmen (bonus vs.cavalry) will upgrade during the game
3) Carthaginian Cavalry
4) African Auxilia will perhaps be split in two
5) Moorish Archers
6) Elephants: 3 Elephants
7) Sacred Band: Elite cavalry bound to African territory



d) Iberians researches not finished yet

1) Celtiberian Scutati (High morale ability)
2) Iberian Caetrati (skirmish ability, bonus vs cavalry)
3) Iberian cavalry
4) Balearic slingers




e) Celts Change to Gallic tribes better accurate

1) Gallic Swordmen (High morale ability) will disappear or change name to Gaesati
2) gallic Tribemen (ambush ability) lose (perhaps) their ambush abilities. Will be juste a medium infantry
3) gallic Cavalry:
4) Gallic skirmishers (ambush ability)


f) Numidians

1) Numidian Iaculatores
2) Numidian cavalry (skirmish ability, scouting ability, raiders)

g) Illyrians researches not finished..Mostly boats and light infantry as far as today

h) Greek Italians...to represent Tarento, Bruttium or Syracuse
1) Italic Hoplites (bonus vs.cavalry)
2) Tarentines: light cavalry
3) Psiloi (skirmish ability)

missing for now Ptolemaic, Seuleucid and Macedonian

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caranorn
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Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:48 am

I will probably pick up my books relevant to this period on Thursday (a bucnh of Osprey books, Connely and some others). After that I will have to recover my camera and get a bunch of friends together to pose as models for the unit graphics. I expect I won't be able to start drawing before the end of the month and I won't have very much time anyhow before may (I'm fencing in several meadows for a friend's horses). But this definitely sounds feasible...
Marc aka Caran...

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Nikel
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Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:00 pm

Just curiosity.

What has happened here? Has aryaman abandoned this project then? Will it be a free mod? Or sold like what happened with Frederick the Great?

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PhilThib
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Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:17 pm

Aryaman could not move forward anymore on the project...so Tyrex will try to take it up where it was left and proceed...let's see :coeurs:

Why are you saying Frederick the Great has been abandoned ? :confused:
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Nikel
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Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:54 pm

No, no. I was asking if aryaman had abandoned the project Punic War.

The comparision with Frederick the Great was because I thought that perhaps this project (Punic Wars) was now an official game and not a mod.

I had the idea that Frederick the Great started here in the forum as a possibility of a mod that later had been adopted as an official AGEod game


http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=7314&highlight=frederick+great

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aryaman
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Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:41 pm

tyrex wrote:As for now here's the first modifications to the list

LIST OF UNITS

a) Romans

1) Hastati:
2) Principes: (High morale ability)
3) Triarii: (bonus vs.cavalry)
4) Rorarii: will diseappear for velites grade 1; skirmish ability
5) Equites:
6) Velites: (skirmish ability) an upgrade of velites grade 1 to reflect the "professionalisation" of those folks
7) Volones: this were slaves legions raised after Cannae
8) Tarentines: light cavalry of dubious quality..very few will be availaible




b) Italics change of name. Will be Socii

1) Italic Hoplites (bonus vs.cavalry) will disappear as never used by Rome
2) Italic Psiloi change to velites socii
3) Italic Infantry:
4) Italic Cavalry:
5) Peltastes (bonus vs.cavalry,skirmish ability) will disappear
6) Cretan archers very few and very expensive as Rome don't used them much

Socii will never switched sides but have a morale of their own and can defect Rome



c) Carthaginians

1) Punic Hoplites (bonus vs.cavalry) can not go out of Poenic territory
2) Lybian Spearmen (bonus vs.cavalry) will upgrade during the game
3) Carthaginian Cavalry
4) African Auxilia will perhaps be split in two
5) Moorish Archers
6) Elephants: 3 Elephants
7) Sacred Band: Elite cavalry bound to African territory



d) Iberians researches not finished yet

1) Celtiberian Scutati (High morale ability)
2) Iberian Caetrati (skirmish ability, bonus vs cavalry)
3) Iberian cavalry
4) Balearic slingers




e) Celts Change to Gallic tribes better accurate

1) Gallic Swordmen (High morale ability) will disappear or change name to Gaesati
2) gallic Tribemen (ambush ability) lose (perhaps) their ambush abilities. Will be juste a medium infantry
3) gallic Cavalry:
4) Gallic skirmishers (ambush ability)


f) Numidians

1) Numidian Iaculatores
2) Numidian cavalry (skirmish ability, scouting ability, raiders)

g) Illyrians researches not finished..Mostly boats and light infantry as far as today

h) Greek Italians...to represent Tarento, Bruttium or Syracuse
1) Italic Hoplites (bonus vs.cavalry)
2) Tarentines: light cavalry
3) Psiloi (skirmish ability)

missing for now Ptolemaic, Seuleucid and Macedonian


Do you plan to modify the existing files or to create completely new ones?
BTW Volones are already in the files.

tyrex
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Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:11 pm

I will usef your old files but I'll modify them. You've done so far a great job. Will be a shame not to use it :thumbsup:

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aryaman
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Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:49 am

tyrex wrote:I will usef your old files but I'll modify them. You've done so far a great job. Will be a shame not to use it :thumbsup:


Thanks. BTW if you plan to include Seleucid, Ptolemaic, etc, you need to enlarge the map and include many new regions.

tyrex
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Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:40 am

It's important to have those factions as they fought a long war between them during the second Punic War with the big battle of Raphia
And, with an extended map, can also be covered the Macedonians, Asian and Mithridatic wars (even Civil Wars too)

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aryaman
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Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:51 pm

tyrex wrote:It's important to have those factions as they fought a long war between them during the second Punic War with the big battle of Raphia
And, with an extended map, can also be covered the Macedonians, Asian and Mithridatic wars (even Civil Wars too)

Sure, no doubt, I was only pointing to you that the map I did is limited to the Western Mediterranean.
BTW, although a bit out of the Punic War time limit, I wrote an article for Ancient Warfare Magazine on the battle of Magnesia that can be of interest for you

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caranorn
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Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:16 pm

I just checked the currently planned unit list in my books and have some questions.

Were the Volones equipped in a particular way different from Hastati or Principes? I assume they were armed by the state, so I would suppose monteferino helmet, lorica hamata, scutum, pilae and greek sword (or gladius?).

I have no idea what the Carthaginian Auxilia might be.

I don't think I have any documentation on Carthaginian Archers, I suppose no armour, possibly a helmet of some type, a recurve bow and a greek sword.

I have no documentation at all about the Seleucides and Ptolemaics of that time period. I assume similarities with helenistic Macedonians.

I don't think I have anything about the Illyrians either.

Oh yes, I assume the Socii would be using campanian or samnite equipment, or would they be more similar to the romans themselves?

I will probably have more questions at a later time. I won't be able to start drawing for the next two weeks.

P.S.: Do we need some type of siege train unit? Obviously ships for the Romans and Carthaginians. Some kind of logistics or treasure unit?
Marc aka Caran...

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Nikel
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Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:37 pm

This is a good reference ;)

Duncan Head, Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars 359 BC to 146 BC, Wargames Research Group, 1982.



http://www.wrg.me.uk/WRG/wrg.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wargames_Research_Group

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aryaman
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Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:33 pm

caranorn wrote:I just checked the currently planned unit list in my books and have some questions.

Were the Volones equipped in a particular way different from Hastati or Principes? I assume they were armed by the state, so I would suppose monteferino helmet, lorica hamata, scutum, pilae and greek sword (or gladius?).

I have no idea what the Carthaginian Auxilia might be.

I don't think I have any documentation on Carthaginian Archers, I suppose no armour, possibly a helmet of some type, a recurve bow and a greek sword.

I have no documentation at all about the Seleucides and Ptolemaics of that time period. I assume similarities with helenistic Macedonians.

I don't think I have anything about the Illyrians either.

Oh yes, I assume the Socii would be using campanian or samnite equipment, or would they be more similar to the romans themselves?

I will probably have more questions at a later time. I won't be able to start drawing for the next two weeks.

P.S.: Do we need some type of siege train unit? Obviously ships for the Romans and Carthaginians. Some kind of logistics or treasure unit?

There is already a set of portraits for units/models/armies I did using the Europa barbarorum cards, BTW

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aryaman
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Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:36 pm

caranorn wrote:Were the Volones equipped in a particular way different from Hastati or Principes? I assume they were armed by the state, so I would suppose monteferino helmet, lorica hamata, scutum, pilae and greek sword (or gladius?).



According to Livy, Volones were equipped with the trophies of temples, so they would be a mix of old arms of different provenence, mostly Gallic probably.

tyrex
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Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:23 am

Were the Volones equipped in a particular way different from Hastati or Principes? I assume they were armed by the state, so I would suppose monteferino helmet, lorica hamata, scutum, pilae and greek sword (or gladius?).


Mostly shield, armor and sword from spoils of war. No uniforms there (uniform is an oddity at this time). You named Lorica. Not a chance to see one. These parts of armor doesn't exist at this time. Bette find a Cardiophilax or chain mail armor

I have no idea what the Carthaginian Auxilia might be.


It's a light infantryman with no protection but a shield and some javelins.

I don't think I have any documentation on Carthaginian Archers, I suppose no armour, possibly a helmet of some type, a recurve bow and a greek sword.


Not at all. Moorish were simple bowmen without protection and with a straight bow

I have no documentation at all about the Seleucides and Ptolemaics of that time period. I assume similarities with helenistic Macedonians.


well not really. Those realms use the phalanx but the troops were not of same origins. Seuleucids used persian like hood instead of helmets. And Ptolemaic started to use natives in his phalanx (first appereance at Raphia). There's also horse archers not appearing in Macedonia as archers, elephants. The light cavalry is not quite the same and so on.

I don't think I have anything about the Illyrians either.


Well Illyrians were mostly light infantry. A sort of Thureophoroi without body armor and, perhaps, a montefortino helmet

Oh yes, I assume the Socii would be using campanian or samnite equipment, or would they be more similar to the romans themselves?


There's some interrogations there as Socii are not very well describe. They'll be mostly equiped in Samnite type I think.



Do we need some type of siege train unit? Obviously ships for the Romans and Carthaginians. Some kind of logistics or treasure unit?


Siege train of course. An heliopolis will be great even if it's not really historical.
Ships for Romans and Carthaginians but also for Illyrians (they were the best pirates of the era), Ptolemaic (the biggest fleet of the era), Macedonians, Rhodes and perhaps Pergamum. But all ships were quite the same at the time.

Logistics..perhaps not. I'm studying the question. If there will be logistical it will have to appears as an cart pull by ox or (for romans) as donkeys

But, for treasures, no use of it.

I wrote an article for Ancient Warfare Magazine on the battle of Magnesia that can be of interest for you


I'm doing so for the french magazine Champ de Bataille about the second macedonian war.
Any help is welcome

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caranorn
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Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:04 pm

Just a note, lorica hamata is chain mail (worn by the better equipped gallic combattants, some of the roman triarii, prinicipes, hastati an equites as well as the re-armed lybian spearmen). Lorica segmata is a type of plate armour, which indeed didn't exist by the Punic Wars.
Marc aka Caran...

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Nikel
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Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:52 pm

Posterior to the second punic war, but may be useful as refeernces for seleucid and ptolemaic armies


Seleucid and Ptolemaic Reformed Armies 168-145 BC



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Seleucid.jpeg
Ptolemaic.jpeg

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aryaman
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Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:15 pm

tyrex wrote:I'm doing so for the french magazine Champ de Bataille about the second macedonian war.
Any help is welcome


Excellent. Then you know for sure that Macedonian Peltastes are quite different from Sicilian Peltastes. I used the word Peltastes because it is a better known one, and I was not including any other hellenistic unit, but you can change them to peltophoroi, as they were called by polybius, to distinguish them from the Macedonian Peltastes

tyrex
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Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:53 am

There's a disput to that really were the Peltastoi at this time. When you read Polybius they appear to be no more a light infantrymen. They seem to have a helmet, an long shield and some kind of armor. May be some confusion with Thurephoroi perhaps.
So, as for me, macedonian peltastoi will not be the same as a sicilian one. Nonetheless the difference in equipment it seems too that macedonian peltastoi were a permanent corps with some kind of regulations. We are far from the half chaotic mercenary bunch Syracuse had

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aryaman
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:46 pm

tyrex wrote:There's a disput to that really were the Peltastoi at this time. When you read Polybius they appear to be no more a light infantrymen. They seem to have a helmet, an long shield and some kind of armor. May be some confusion with Thurephoroi perhaps.
So, as for me, macedonian peltastoi will not be the same as a sicilian one. Nonetheless the difference in equipment it seems too that macedonian peltastoi were a permanent corps with some kind of regulations. We are far from the half chaotic mercenary bunch Syracuse had

Agree, Polybius depicts them as a sort of elite assault infantry, storming fortresses or leading the avangarde, holding a ford against enemy cavalry. Livy placed them in the fornt line at Pydna, as part of the phalanx and equipped with sarissa, that has lead to some authors to propose that they were a dual purposse infantry. I would suggest to give them the the form square ability (to defend against cavalry) and a high cohesion level.
Certainly, as you say, they were also a permanent corps, that could be reflected by a higher level of experience.

tyrex
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Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:51 pm

I'd rather follow the ideas of Polybius on the matter. Contrary to Livius he was greek and had seen the macedonian armies on action. Polubius was also a conteporaneous of these war (well more than Livius ;) )
The description of Livius seems to look like more the mysterious Hypaspists of Alexander than the Peltasts.

As today Macedonian army will be composed of

1/Petzetaroi (miss a h ). The core of the Phalanx
2/Hetaroi: heavy cavalry
3/Peltastoi: a medium infantry with bonus on siege
4/Light cavalry (name to be defined)
5/Psiloi: mostly javelineers
6/Mercenary Cretan archers
7/Mercenary Rhodians slingers: subjet to defect if Rhodes turn to Rome
7/Thracians mercenaries : a medium infantery with limited fire capacities
8/Chalchaspydes: the elite of the army. Powerful phalanx but very few
9/Thureophoroï: medium infantry with bonus on fighting cavalry
10/Prodomoï (anachronism in terms): Light cavalry
11/Thessalian cavalry: Heavy cavalry cheaper and less powerful than hetaroi.

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Nikel
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Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:42 am

Greek and Roman naval warfare; a study of strategy, tactics, and ship design from Salamis (480 B. C.) to Actium (31 B. C.) by William Ledyard Rodgers. Annapolis, Md., United States naval institute; London, B. F. Stevens & Brown, limited, 1937.


http://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015002181637

70 pages are related with the second punic war, 10 can be downloaded at a time, first 10 here


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[The extension pdf has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]


tyrex
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Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:58 am

Seleudid army..well difficult to find sources about that one. But, nonetheless, some characteristics appears. Just don't have name to put on it alas

So:

1/Phalanx: quite the same as Macedonian. Will be otherwise less professionalist
2/Argyraspides: the elite of the Phalanx. Quite a tough nut to crack
3/psiloi: the large bunch of skirmishers. Will perhaps be a difference between archers and slingers and javelineers
4/Galatians: Fierce celtians tribes...but more disciplined than Gauls
5/light infantry..don't have name for them. Merely crude levies of troops from all the Empire. Very cheap but very feeble
6/Chariot: well would be tought to simulate these one. They were an absolutely obsolet weapon by the era. More a nuisance to their own army in fact than a benefit
7/elephants. the asian big one. Will be more powerful than any others. But will still be rather fragile.

and then start the reals troubles. Well cavalry is rather difficult to describe. There a LOT of different type. at least 4-5 differents types of light cavalry, 3-4 of heavy, some horse archers. So it will something like:
8:Cataphracts
9/heavy cavalry
10/light cavalry scout
11/light cavalry harassmetn
12/horse archers

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Nikel
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Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:43 pm

Besides the Montvert and Wargames Research Group books cited above regarding the seleucid army, more information can be read here

The Seleucid Army by Bezalel Bar-Kochva, many pages can be read at Google books

http://books.google.es/books?id=Y_sAi7EkTLkC&pg=PA54&vq=regular+army&dq=editions:ISBN0521206677&source=gbs_search_s&cad=0

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