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Reflections on the Spanish Campaign

Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:16 pm

Well I just bought the game and having a good time thanks to the game. By far the Spanish Campaign is my favourite, even though I normally finish the game well before its official end (normally by 1810).

I found some problems and have several questions to ask to whoever could answer.

So here are the questions:

a) Does the Grand Armee ever withraw from Spain (including Napoleon)?
b) Do the Spanish get levies at the begining of every year? These tend to be pretty huge affairs.
c) Do the French ever get Spanish collaborator units?

And now the problems:

a) Very often there is a duplication of generals and units. Example, if one can extricate the army of Portugal or at least its generals, one will have 2 units basically bearing the same name. This is especially true in the case of generals. There are 2 Berthiers when he 'returns' to Spain.
b) For some reason when Reynier arrives, he always gets labeled as the 7 Corps.
c) Several units get no reinforcements to bring them up to strength. Ex No Italian elite infantry or cavalry, a lot of the minor state units don't get reinforcements etc. This basically renders such units useless in the long term.
d) Why do Spanish provincial militias get reinforcements from the regular soldier pool? After repeated calling of Spanish insurruction thingy, I ended up with about 150 militia unused replacements while supposed militia troops use up precious regular reinforcements.
e) When militias are trained to provincial militia standard, there is always one unit which is remains militia. Is this intentional? Also can provincial militia be upgraded to regular status?

Thanks in advance

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Carnium
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Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:07 pm

Finally someone also plays the Spanish Campaign too :sourcil:

Lets see if I can answer some of your questions :

a) I have seen Napoleon Bonaparte leaving the theatre (via an event) but his brother Louis stays.
b) No idea. But they get HUGE amount of guerillas all the time.
c) Never seen them, so there are probably none.

About your problems :
a) I can confirm that and it is a bit strange. Probably some problems in script.
b) must check it in my game
c) So true. I had to move all these units back to France as they are completely useless. It seems that someone forgot to code their reinforcements. Will have to check which nations are affected.
d-e) never played with Spain yet.

Could you please tell me what strategy are you using with France ? Usually I destroy all unused small forts and guard the towns and try to have some special units for anti-guerilla forces (cavalry and horse artillery). This campaign is great fun, but as you already mentioned it needs a fix or two.

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Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:44 pm

My strategy as France is pretty simple. I try to keep the area around Madrid with the original corps, taking Talavera and Toledo. If you keep a corps in Aruncia (sorry for the spelling but I mean the area between Madrid and Toledo) and another either in Madrid or Toledo, you'll be forcing the Spanish to face the bulk of your army all the time. Use Grouchy and the cavalry to chase stragglers. I keep the army around Madrid as long as I can hope of extricating Kellermann and Junot from Portugal. Then I retreat to Zaragoza with the army to await the Grand Armee. I also find it very important to build a depot in Zaragosa in anticipation of the offensive to retake Madrid.

In the north I use Bessiers and the other forces present to take San Sebastian and the next fort on the coast. Use Bessiers as the anchor of the line at Burgos with a powerful corps. Send Mouton to reinforce Reille and Duhesme to take Barcellona and Tarragona and then wait there for the arrival of the Grand Armee.

When the Grand Armee arrives, I go looking for the main enemy armies. Sometimes this takes me north and Portugal, sometimes south. My preference is to go south because there are a lot of main targets (Valencia, Seville, Cordoba, etc). Then sweep north and destroy whatever remains of the enemy. I use the (reorganised) Grand Armee as the hammer, with the Armee d'Espagne as garrison and rear defence.

One important factor is my game is to concentrate my forces a lot. I dispense with 2 brigade 1 artillery formation type divisions found at the begining of the game. It means that divisions double of the above can tackle corps size adverseries. Also I try to siege large enemy concentrations, on defensive stance. Its incredible the losses that the enemy takes. I also use my cavalry a lot to hunt down guerillas, conducting sweeps along the roads to maintain open the lines of supply.

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Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:35 pm

BTW I played the Spanish side too and that is why I spoke about the size of Spanish Levies. Large numbers of provincial militias, militias and partisans appear. I would like to know the frequency of such events and if they continue throughout the war.

Also point e) in my original mail, I'm referring to the 5 element militias, not to be confused with the 2 or 3 element provincial militias that tend to serve as the mainstay of the Spanish armies.

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Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:15 pm

I know I'm being a pain here but can the Spanish provincial militias be reinforced from the militia pool? This will give the Spanish more staying power because once they lose a battle (a very likely occurance) most of the provincial militias take devastating losses they become so much dead meat for the next French attack. Militia replacements are pretty numerous, so it would be easy to bring provincial militia brigades up to strength. After all the Spanish resistence was like a hydra headed monster. As it is presently, one ends up with hundredes of a militia companies sitting unutilised while the bulk of the Spanish army tries to make up its losses from the limited numbers of regular replacements.

Maybe after 1810 these will become like second level regulars.

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Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:30 pm

Normally, the Spanish militia replacements (and there are plenty of them) are here to "refill" the militia units...provided you meet the conditions (i.e. units must be at rest in cities, to cut a long story short, in order to get replacements). If this does not work, there is something wrong :tournepas

Indeed, after 1810, Spanish militias get regularly updated (i.e. Army reform + training) into regular units. :indien:
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Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:03 pm

Are the militias really militias, or are they irregulars?

Are the elements weakened or the unit lost one element? Replacements can't recreate from scratch destroyed units, and if the said unit has only one element, it is often 'alive at full strength' or 'destroyed utterly' with such fragile forces.

Something which can be done quickly, is a new Spanish option which would create new units by tapping into the militia pool of replacements...
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Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:44 pm

They are all Militia (type, family). Most of them have 2 to 5 elements.

So may be the option is a nice thing. :indien:
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Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:07 pm

Thanks for the quick fix :sourcil:
But could you please answer the other questions like :

a) Very often there is a duplication of generals and units. Example, if one can extricate the army of Portugal or at least its generals, one will have 2 units basically bearing the same name. This is especially true in the case of generals. There are 2 Berthiers when he 'returns' to Spain.
b) For some reason when Reynier arrives, he always gets labeled as the 7 Corps.
c) Several units get no reinforcements to bring them up to strength. Ex No Italian elite infantry or cavalry, a lot of the minor state units don't get reinforcements etc. This basically renders such units useless in the long term.
e) When militias are trained to provincial militia standard, there is always one unit which is remains militia. Is this intentional? Also can provincial militia be upgraded to regular status?

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Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:45 pm

Pocus wrote:Are the militias really militias, or are they irregulars?

Are the elements weakened or the unit lost one element? Replacements can't recreate from scratch destroyed units, and if the said unit has only one element, it is often 'alive at full strength' or 'destroyed utterly' with such fragile forces.

Something which can be done quickly, is a new Spanish option which would create new units by tapping into the militia pool of replacements...



But the Provincial militias (ie the red and white ones) have the "regular" sign at the top of the icon. Incidentally I was looking at the latest Spanish game and by 1809 I had something like 200 replacements. I'm not sure the provincial militias actually draw replacements from the militia replacement pool considering the devastating losses I suffered in the initial battles against the French. So much so that the few real regular regiments present at the begining of the game are constantly understrength, because all the regular replacements seem to go to reinforce the provincial militias. The other militias (the blue ones made up of five elements) do replace elements from the militia replacement pool.

At least that is my impression of what's happening. Maybe I'm wrong...

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Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:01 pm

the spanish troops are shocking i had over 100 000 defending the south of the map and i went north whith the british army and tuck toulouse all the spanish troops were wiped out by a force of 10000 french makes no sence the spanish army wasant that bad.

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Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:37 am

Actually the Bourbon regular armies (Spanish and Neopolitan) were the jokes of Europe. One of the reasons why Napoleon entered into the Iberian peninsula with high hopes was that he thought the fighting capacity of regular army was virtually nil. Obviously he mistook the resolve of the Spanish army with that of the people.

Only on a few occasions was the Spanish regular army able to stand against the French. Also most of the 'regular' army ended up being made up of poorly trained and equipped militia since the bulk of the regular regiments were destroyed at the begining of the French invasion.

I think the game actually makes sense. The Spanish army was large but badly led and supplied. In the game one has to adopt a waiting game, attacking isolated French divisions or corps and legging it once major formations arrive. Trade space and time for your army to survive and use the partisans well. The peninsula affords a player enough space to retreat and regroup, especially since a) the French are rather thin on the ground, b) they start losing units as time goes on and c) the AI seems loath to pursue defeated armies to see their complete destruction. After 1810 the Spanish get two advantages: a) the army is reformed and becomes a decent warmachine and b) they start getting some decent leaders (especially partisan leaders).

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Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:08 am

Can I make some suggestions on this scenario?

More often than not, the campaign is over after the first two years because either the Spanish run out space to retreat (if the French are played by the human player) or the French are destroyed piecemeal (if the Spanish are played by the human player). May I suggest some changes/additions?

The French army rarely lost whole divisions in the fighting in the Peninsula and rapidly substituted units or brought them up to strength (except in the later stages of the conflict when France itself was invaded by the allies post Liepzig). Therefore I suggest that French brigades/regiments (only) should be reconstituted if they are eliminated in battle, from the mass of replacements that a French player accumulates over time. Italian and German contingents should not be able to reconstitute though because they were one off "offerings" of co-operation from allies. Obviously generals who die should not be replacable. This would allow the French to be able to recover somewhat and provide a challenge to the human player even if the AI suffers a catastrophic defeat. It would prolong the game and make it more challenging.

Each French army conducted operations indipendently from their bretheren within the Peninsula. Marmont at Salamanca (for example) was leading 6 divisions and Massena's invasion of Portugal consisted of a similarly sized force. Maybe they could be given army headquarters so that they could really operate indipendently.

One small adjustment that could be done concerns the Convention of Cintra event. More often than not, the Army of Portugal is either eliminated or manages to escape. If the army is destroyed, these generals are normally injured and then returned to service. If the army survives, the generals survive as well. This creates a problem since Delaborde and Thouventot return when the army of Portugal is reconstituted. Is it possible that once the Convention of Cintra event is activated, Delaborde and Thouventot are removed from the gameplay and return once the army of Portugal is reconstituted? It would be a bit similar to when Bessiers or Dorcenne return
to the Peninsula.

On the Spanish side, a few more regular replacements tied to the Spanish Insurruction event would go a long way in improving their performance in the field. Also prior to the reformation of the Spanish army in 1810, the Provincial militias (the guys in white and red) should be classed as militias and draw replacements from the militia pool. This would rapidly bring up to strength the Spanish formations and provide the French with a more challenging foe. When combined, these two adjustments would allow the player to accumulate some regular replacements over time to be able to sustain war over a long time.

Also is it possible to adjust a bit the promotion system for the Spanish? Minor successes over the French normally resulted in immediate promotion. Maybe an easing of the promotion system vis-a-vis the Spanish could mimick this situation.

Sorry for being a pain in the neck but I have to admit that the Spanish campaign is a big time favourite of mine. :coeurs:

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Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:43 pm

Hello and thanks for the feeback.

Most of these suggestions are rather doable in code or script I would say. I'll pass the plate to the Historical Team and see what they can do. For example consuming the excess regular replacements to create new french brigade is rather easy. Adding more regular for Spanish too.

And perhaps some automated boost of seniority for the Spanish Generals can be done...
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Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:56 pm

Thanks again Pocus! I have to admit that what I wrote is based on my 'feel' of how the Peninsula Campaign was fought. My info mostly comes from an Anglo-Saxon perspective (like David Chandler) so I hope that maybe others could give some feedback from other, national perspectives about which I'm not so well informed so much, due to the language barriers (especially the Spanish and French). When reading British books, one always gets the impression that the contest was between the professional/battle hardened French and the ineptly led but Hydra headed resistance of the Spanish, with the British delivering the killing blows when the opportunity presented itself. :siffle: I hope that other patrons of these boards would like to add or change whatever I suggested. I have to admit that my aim is to prolong the campaign and make it more challenging. :innocent:

One last question. The Spanish have excellent partisan units but unfortunately I don't seem to use them well. When they are placed in ambush, do I have to put them in aggressive stance or on neutral? If they are organised in divisions (something I like to do a lot) do they perform better or not (especially under their excellent partisan leaders)?

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Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:33 pm

You can keep them in defensive, if they succeed in their ambush roll, they will auto-switch to offensive.
You can group them in a 'division' of some sort, under a Partisan leader, no problem. A nasty war band I would say!
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Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:32 pm

Thanks! That's what I do. I put all the large partidas together and they form very powerful formations, at least on paper. Even large partisan formations get trashed by smaller French formations, sometimes. :p leure:

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Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:58 am

I have been playing this campaign quite a bit, firstly from the allies side (I always prefer to command the redcoats). I have now started a French campaign. It seems to me that the auto garrison feature doesn't work in this campaign. I didn't think it was when I was the allies, too many civilian uprisings, but I haven't seen it all as the French. Is this WAD? I think it would help the French AI if it was working as they wouldn't have to keep retaking Girona, San sebastion, etc, in their rear areas all the time. Has any body else seen this or am I missing something?
Also noticed that the George is insane event doesn't appear properly, no text in the 'Times'.

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Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:27 pm

There are no automatic garrisons in this campaign. Only 3 units are labeled as garrisons, and they are found near Gerona, Burgos and Valladolid. One has to detach line troops (as the French) to garrison cities. Normally even single brigades or allied regiments suffice to keep a city in check. The problem of the AI is that it tries to concentrate its forces to go on the attack with the result that it has to retake many target cities over and over again.

Obviously the more territory the French conquer, the more garrison forces they have to detach. When I play as the French, the problem becomes really acute in 1809 when I have to face large Coalition armies and uprisings behind my lines plus the constant loss of control of territory that impedes the movement of supplies. Several scratch infantry divisions, a few cavalry divisions under promotable generals and Lecchi's Italians/Moro's Westphalians normally keep Catalonia and the North under reasonable control.

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PhilThib
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Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:38 pm

Well, it looks very close to history then :sourcil:
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Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:33 pm

Exactly! :hat:

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Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:12 pm

Ok it's me again being a pain in ... :siffle:

Don't know if anyone has noticed, but some of the French engineering units have become hugely effective (too many men in the units). As far as I have noticed, these are the initial units present with Duhesme, Bessiers etc in 1808.

Also some engineer and supply units (I think those with the reconstituted Army of Portugal) are created understrength and are virtually useless. Is it possible to have them at full strength.

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Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:04 pm

Just a note, I am working slowly through the Spanish campaign, but it is very slow. Have got maybe half way into 1809.
It seems simple enough as the French to spread out accross the peninsula and take ground. Am I then later going to be challenged by Spanish uprising and English armies? It seemed easy enough to chase the English out of Oporto, and indeed to re-take Coruna after I only left a small garrison there.

Anyway, is it going to get any harder, or is this it?

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Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:07 am

The guerillas start appearing late 1809/1810. Unlike the provincial militias, which only come in existance if the main local city is in Spanish hands, guerillas appear in the wild regions of Spain. They will reduce the flow of supplies if allowed to operate unchecked. Also in 1810 the Spanish army is reformed, with Provincial militias becoming a bit better and the basic militias (the 5 element ones) becoming trainable. Thus the Spanish army is no longer a walkover especially when they start getting better generals.

Also the British will send several reinforcements every year (nothing big, a division or two). Also Wellington will return in 1810, making the campaign harder. Also the Portugese will make substantial contributions by raising further units.

On the French side the story is different. As time goes on, contingents are sent back home. Reinforcements become scarcer too. Basically strategic consumption will start taking its toll. The only offset factor that they have is the quality of generalship and the veteran quality of their troops. Much depends on how one is able to balance garrisons with a mobile army.

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Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:02 am

Another question related to this scenario (for a change :siffle: )

Why are gendarmes elite forces? What was so special about them historically that they got rated elite in the game?

BTW How do players use the mass of gendarmes that becomes available in 1810? Very often even when I combine them in larger units they tend to whittle away rather rapidly since there are few replacements available. Any ideas?

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Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:34 pm

Again I'm writing (and I know I'm testing the writers' patience) on this scenario. Please bear with me :nuts:

One of the weak points of the Allied armies HQ is that they tend to gather together in one army. Therefore on French major victory (usually during the intervention of Napolean and the Grand Armee), would result in the destruction of several HQs needlessly. This gives the Human player a large advantage since Corps and divisional commanders do not receive the bonuses of higher formations, reducing their effectiveness. This is especially true when the British army is fritted away because of that idiot Cuesta.

Is it possible that the four allied armies be programmed to act indipendent of each other and maintain their individuality? Maybe the Spanish armies could be tied to specific regions (which would be quite historical) with the English reinforcing them as needed. I mean, if for example Castanos with the army of Andalucia can operate in the South, the French wouldn't be able to cripple Spain with a short campaign. A Spanish army in being in the south, coupled with the British threat to Madrid may be sufficient to convince the human player to look over his shoulder all the time and divide his attention. The same could be said if Blake can operate up north and pose a threat to Leon and Burgos could prove to be another headache.

Don't know if this is possible. Hope it is ....

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Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:11 am

I've found another problem. For some reason, several French units vanish whithout reason throughout the game. This seems to be rather random, with each game behaving differently.

Ex, one unit that almost always vanishes is the Milice unit in Bayonne, and it almost always vanishes on the second turn. It is kept in play if it is integrated in a division, otherwise it will disappear over time. The same may be said of the Milice in Perpignan, but since it is part of Reille's division, it will only disappear if it is somehow left outside the division.

Of greater impact is what happens in 1809/1810. Several brigades simply vanish. I'm not talking about those units that leave with Napoleon (like the Guard) or others that leave at regular intervals when they are required to return to France (I got the excel sheet of events that lists the units to be removed). Units like the Graindorge brigades and several reserve brigades initially found in Bessiers' corps simply disappear.

Don't know what's happening and it doesn't follow a pattern. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not. I reinstalled the game because I thought that it has corrupted somewhat, but I'll keep the developers posted on this issue.

BTW is there a chance that a few Italian/Napolitan cavalry and Italian elite infantry reinforcements are added? This would give the player the chance of using the Italian cavalry and elite guard unit (in Lecchi's division) more. The same may be said of the Westphalian and Berg cavalry units.

Thanks in advance

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PhilThib
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Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:22 am

I'd like to see some saves about these... there might be many reasons indeed.

For the scenario reinforcements for French minors, this may be added fairly easily...just need to know which recomendation you can do fro frequency and amounts per type / nation :indien:
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Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:04 am

less technical comment i suppose/

by about 1810 or so, as the French, I have control over all spanish cities.
occasionally, due to errors by me in setting up decent garrisons, I loose a city to the spanish.
that then re-sets the '2 year' timer , and means i have to keep slogging on.
Now, my VPs are something like 3000+, so there is no way the spanish can win 'on points' but, i will have to play through an eternity of turns to be declared the winner.
I dont mean to seem under motivated, but I am not sure if I can keep with the campign through to the end. Unless of course the Spanish rabble will get seriously stronger.
Also I dont seem to see too many British armies about after I took Coruna and Lisbon and Oporto - are they likely to reappear & cause me trouble?

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Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:49 pm

We could plan some kind of event that triggers the game end once you set a certain level of VPs indeed :indien:

As for the British, it is true that the loss of Portugal and key ports in the Peninsula spells doom for them...although a few units should still arrive via Gibraltar. May be we should give them some leeway, like may be include Cornwall (Plymouth) as a base area... Let's see if this could be done :cwboy:
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