Napoleonic wars paintings and art

[Nikel]

As a gift to arsan that has come back safely, here is another little quiz

With respect to picture 1 and 2


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1 Both are from the same painter (the first shared) and represent two actions of the same battle. Who is the main artist and which one is the battle represented


2 The battle is better known for what is showed in 2. But in 1 we can see some infantry action by the french. Which french infantry regiments participated and who was the general commanding them?


3 About picture 2. What units are charging on horse and why were they chosen for the charge?


4 About picture 2 too, here there is a mistake in the weapons of the defenders but it is right in the attackers. What is wrong and what is right?

[PhilThib]

Excellent paintings....too bad I am not allowed to answer

[Nikel]

Hey, the Master posting in my little thread!


But why you are not allowed?

Unless you plan to support these series of quizzes with a free copy of NCP2 to the winner

[PhilThib]

Why not ...we could give out some gifts...

Now for what I recall, the second picture shows the Polish cheveau-Legers charging a Spanish battery during the battle of Somosierra on Nov. 29th 1808.

IIRC Napoleon was in a hurry to capture the entrenched Spanish position so he ordered a charge by his "fastest" unit there, Polish cavalry (faster than French infantry which tried to claim the laurels later on)

The artist is Polish painter Wojciech Kossak (painting on oil, 1907)

Can't find what's wrong in the weapons, accounts says the Spanish militia did have bayonets...

[Rafiki]

Canons are weapons too?

[Nikel]

Why not ...we could give out some gifts...

Oh, I was just kidding But I wonder how this could be implemented, the answers could not be public,...

Thanks for answering! Yes, there is something wrong with the weapons of the defenders, but there is something right too with the cavalry, after all polish cavalry was known for something.


I have been thinking about an idea. There are a lot of available paintings about napoleonic wars battles. And there have been some comments about an improved battle report. One possible feature could be to have a database of pictures and according to what happens in the battle, display a picture related. For example if a charge of french cuirassiers occurred vs british squares, a picture like the one posted in this thread above. Could be similar to events in red, if you click on the text in the battle report, then the picture appears, with some extra information or something,... What do you think, can this be done? I have been waiting for somebody with more knowledge of your games (arsan?) to start a thread about an improved battle report, and add this idea. But as nobody does it and you are here


Rafiki, yes the cannons are weapons, sorry, is it not the right word? What is better arms, armament, weaponry?


And where is arsan, I think I saw him logged in and he is the first to answer! Perhaps he is lost reading all the post of the week?


I will let a pair of days more to give the answers

[Rafiki]

Rafiki, yes the cannons are weapons, sorry, is it not the right word? What is better arms, armament, weaponry?

Sure it is; I just wanted to point out that even if there is nothing wrong with the Spanish bayonets, there still other weapons that might possibly be wrong

(For the record: I have absolutely *no* knowledge of Napoleonic-era history outside Norway; even inside Norway, things are sketchy leure: )

[Nikel]

Perhaps you know more than what you think, as in fact the wrong thing is related with the cannons

[arsan]

Hi everybody!
Thanks for the welcome back quiz Nikel!
Just arrived this afternoon and i'm trying to get to grips with all (or most) of what had been posted around here on a week... and that's a lot!! +260 threads, and a new game!!
I will need some time

About still unanswered questions... i only know half of one...
What is right about the weapons on the second painting is that the famous polish lancers of the guard were not lancers still and used sabers as shown on the pictures
Oh, and i can remember exactly where i read it, but i seem to recall that Napoleon decision about sending the poles to take the guns was not a very meditated one.
He was quite angry with the infantry slow progress against "the spanish rabble" and on an impulse decided to "show them how things were done" sending the poor poles who were the most nearby "victims" on a mission very difficult for cavalry: charging uphill, four abreast (as they could only deploy on a narrow road winding his way up the hill side) and over muddy/snow terrain to charge against several gun positions staged along the road.
That they were able to carry the positions and survive says a lot about their capacities ... and not much about the Spanish gunners aim
By the way i though there was at least some snow on Somosierra battle At that date (late November) and that place (a cold mountain pass) it would be normal to have some.

The main highway from Madrid to the north goes just by the same mountain pass today. I have gone through there dozens of times and i always remember the poles, the French and the Spanish fighting there on that barren slopes when i drive by

Regards!

[Nikel]

Welcome back arsan, you were missed!


I can resume what has happened here. While us the NCPers manage to retreat in good order, the AACWers have suffered an overwhelming defeat by the WIAers


Very interesting your answer, a nice read, thanks. As already said will let a pair of days more


About the highway to Burgos, recently I went there in a trip to a wedding in Aranda de Duero, I told my girlfriend about the battle but she was not very interested


And what about starting a new thread about the battle report

[arsan]

I told my girlfriend about the battle but she was not very interested

Same here... i told her about it every time we drive by Somosierra and her interests does not seem to increase with each successive telling

About the battle report thread, why don't you open in yourself and give your ideas? No problem at all with it!
I will be glad to give my own ideas when i finish reading all the posts from the last weeks
As you can suppose by now, if you open the thread on the "Help improve" forum of AACW probably it will get more attention from other players than on the NCP
We Nappy fans are few around here leure:
Cheers!

[Nikel]

I would do it. The problem is that the only idea I have is what was posted above, about the pictures of the battles

Something tells me that when you or other talk about to improve the battle report, in fact you are talking about other things

We NCP players, are not that bad. What I told you about the NCPers,... was a joke, but it is true, there have been a lot of activity in this part of the forum

[Adlertag]

An attempt to answer to points 3 and 4.
The engagment of Somosierra occured November 30th 1808.

3. 3rd squadron, 1st Pole Lancer (was the squadron on Napoleon's guard duty that day), led by Kozietulski.

4. Not sure...but Spanish have organized 4 batteries of 4 guns dispersed along the "road". Picture shows only 3 but it seems the road wasn't so narrow to prevent the placement of 4 ??

[Adlertag]

In fact Kozietulsik was commander of the 2nd squadron. Furthermore it was the first battle for the men of the 3rd squadron...so the poles !

[Florent]

What is right in 4 for the attackers is that despite the legend the Poles had still no lances and charged with sabers.

[arsan]

What is right in 4 for the attackers is that despite the legend the Poles had still no lances and charged with sabers.

Hey hey! I posted that already!!
Nikel when will you resolve the quiz??

[arsan]

By the way... talking about Napoleonic quizzes and curiosities...
I´m currently reading the amazing Baron de Marbot memories (he was an aide de camp and cavalry officer who served from 1799 to 1815 with the Napoleonic armies through all of Europe).
The guy was seriously wounded more that 15 times on this period but what really astonished me is that he reports that during the battle of Leipzig (1813) he was wounded on the thigh... by and arrow!!!
It seems some of the russian troops (woodsmen) used bows and arrows on combat!
I remember having read somewhere that some units (Russians maybe??) carried pikes on some campaigns for lack of muskets for all the men but never heard about arrows...
What do you think about it??
Cheers!

[Nikel]

OK, by popular demand (arsan :niark , here it is. Thanks PhilThib, arsan, Adlertag and Florent , for the answers


According to my sources, here are the right ones


1 Wojciech Kossak (Paris, France, 1857 – 1942, Kraków, Poland). Battle of Somosierra. The first is a part of a panorama about the battle, authored too by Michałem Wywiórskim. I think, as I found this very nice picture in a polish page, where you can see the other parts of the panorama. There are too a lot of pictures more by Kossak, of the napoleonic wars and others, very interesting

http://www.pinakoteka.zascianek.pl/Kossak_W/Kossak_W_2.htm


2 General Ruffin's infantry division was the first to attack the spanish positions. Was composed by 24 and 96 line and 9 light infantry regiments. This division was included in Victor's corps. Note that in the game is slightly different

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3 Polish light horse, 3th squadron (this was not asked, but as Adlertag posted it ). And also as he said they were chosen because they were the duty squadron that was with Napoleon. Napoleon seeing that the infantry made no progress ordered his duty squadron to charge. Later there were more cavalry units following them


4 What is right about the polish is that their weapons are sabres, not lances. They did not receive the lances till 1809. In 1809 the complete regiment was retired from Spain and was rearmed with lances. Note that this is not the lancers of the Vistula, another polish unit that already had lances. And before Somosierra they were not yet part of the Imperial Guard.

About the spanish, 7800 men and 16 guns defended Somosierra. What is wrong? At the crest there were 10 guns, and the rest in 3 sections of 2 guns each, down the road. So there were 2 not 3 cannons


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So the winner is PhilThib 1,5 points. Half a point for arsan, Adlertag and Florent, yes arsan you had already said they had not lances yet


PD: arsan, your comment about the arrows is a quiz?

[Florent]

I don't know what was done for the translation but in french version of the book it 's about Cossack or eastern tribes of Russia, some of them carrying Bows. Marbot says Bashkirs.

[arsan]

PD: arsan, your comment about the arrows is a quiz?

No, just a curiosity
Don't you find it cool having archers on a Napoleonic battle?
By the way, i hope there is a "Russian archer" unit model on NCP!
If not, the game historic precision will be very damaged!

Thanks for the quiz and the polish page link. Its very cool!!!
Are you already thinking on the next quiz??
Regards!

[arsan]

I don't know what was done for the translation but in french version of the book it 's about Cossack or eastern tribes of Russia, some of them carrying Bows. Marbot says Bashkirs.

That's interesting to know! Thanks!
So it was a mounted archer. that is still cooler !
On my English edition (just an abridged 1 tome edition of his memoirs leure its described literally as a "Russian backwoodsman"
Now, i'm not very sure of the meaning of that word.
I'm trying to get the full two tomes English edition but sadly it seems it will not be easy/cheap. It's out of print since long ago
Cheers!

[Nikel]

Oh what a pity, because there should be no quiz with its respective painting

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Alexander I Presenting the Kalmuks, Cossacks and Bashkirs to Napoleon I at Tilsit in July 1807, by Bergeret



As said Florent they were the Bashkir

They are present in the game, I have not played the 1812 campaign so I have not seen them in action. They are called cosaques_Bashkirs. I am not sure if they were a tribe of cossacks though

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According to the wikipedia the are turkish, but the cossacks are slavs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkirs

[arsan]

Damn!
I didn't imagined that a Bashkir unit existed on game
I was just making an stupid joke about it Shame on me!

Nice picture, by the way!

[Nikel]

That's interesting to know! Thanks!
So it was a mounted archer. that is still cooler !
On my English edition (just an abridged 1 tome edition of his memoirs leure its described literally as a "Russian backwoodsman"
Now, i'm not very sure of the meaning of that word.
I'm trying to get the full two tomes English edition but sadly it seems it will not be easy/cheap. It's out of print since long ago
Cheers!

The complete memoirs of General Marbot are available online, well it is not the same that to have the books, but if you want to consult something...

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=marbot

http://www.napoleonic-literature.com/Index-Marbot.htm



About the painting by Bergerot, who is the one of the left, Murat? Posing as always?


Edit: direct link to Marbot memoirs, decent djvu file with the 2 volumes

http://ia311334.us.archive.org/2/items/memoirsofbaronde00marbrich/memoirsofbaronde00marbrich.djvu

[arsan]

Thanks for the links Nikel!
Your are an expert finding thinks on the web!
Now i have my txt file with Marbot Memories.
If i can't find a reasonably priced book edition i will be compelled to use my workplace laser printer...
Cheers!

[Rafiki]

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It was just too weird to not share

[arsan]

Mmm... i see possibilities for a new AGEOD game!
NJCP
Napoleon's Jurasic Campaigns!
A game were dragoon cavalry have a new meaning!
Now.. what's the trivia question for this picture Rafiki??
Maybe if the tyrannosaurus is a she or a he??

[Rafiki]

Ah, trivia-question; "Which battle saw the first use of battalion-sized dinocav formations?"

[Adlertag]

Ah, trivia-question; "Which battle saw the first use of battalion-sized dinocav formations?"

Perhaps....Dinosterlitz ?

[Nikel]

Back here



This time very easy. Just want to post my all time favourite napoleonic wars painting, and probably not only napoleonic. As a little tribute to all the war gamers out there. As many of you I have been playing with soldiers since I was a boy (paper and plastic) and now as an adult I continue playing with "digital soldiers"


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For the first one that answer the question and that of course like this painting, I have a little surprise, it took me some time to find it


Name and artist?