French & Spanish

[Offworlder]

Two French generals, namely Suchet (one of my favorites) and Joseph Bonaparte have the attribute of being able to lead Spanish forces without penalties. Yet as far as I know the French never recruit Spanish units, neither in the Peninsula Campaign nor in any other. Am I missing something?

[PhilThib]

No, you don't... it's included because we have designed some units for the pro-French spanish forces raised by Joseph, but we haven't yet created the events for these, for lack of both time and appropriate OOBs (nation tag is FSP, for French-Spanish ).

We wanted to have some options where the French could recruit those units under certain circumstances (to offset those units leaving Spain back to France or elsewhere), but work has stopped on this, as our lead research betas have moved to other stuff and we lack the information and time.. leure:

We are trying to re-build the research beta team, but it takes lots of efforts and time to do so

[arsan]

Hi

From what i know, Suchet was one of the few french generals well regarded by (at least part) of the spanish population. If i not mistaken, he was charged for a time with control over Catalonia and Mediterranean coast area and was fairly good on his work there.
As an anecdote, one of the typical food on the catalonian coast is still know as "Fish Suchet", its some kind of fish stew which the general was reportedly fond of...
Now, forming spaniard pro french units on the Peninsular war looks a little too much "alternate history" to me
But in any case, i'm not an expert on this so...
Regards!

[Carnium]

We are trying to re-build the research beta team, but it takes lots of efforts and time to do so

Why don't you take Offworlder ?
He knows what he is talking about and he would help you a lot.
Hopefully he is interested

[Offworlder]

I'm not that firmly grounded in Napoleonic history and my interest in the Peninsula Campaign actually stems from this fact.

All I know is that Joseph had Spanish Guards (no idea how they were organised though). Besides that, I think the French maintained some sort of militia in the big cities (like in other countries) for police duties. Don't know if it would make sense to include them though.

arsan: The French did have some support in Spain as elsewhere. From the little I know, in Catalonia the French had considerable support (through the ages I might add). I wouldn't be surprised that they managed to recruit substantial numbers (ie a few thousand). Not only that, but quite a large section of Spanish intelligensia was influenced by French ideals too. There were also the enemies of the Bourbons and Godoy. Despite modern historical revisions, the Spanish insurruction was not a national uprising but rather a series of local insurructions on a provincial basis. The local Juntas, the numerous provincial armies etc, all point that way. Actually the French takeover did not unite the Spanish.

In game terms, this would mean that the Spanish should have at least one or two more army HQs (ex Extremadura) and provincial militias should not be transferable between armies.

[arsan]

Hi
You are right about the high bourgeoisie and cultured people support/admiration for the french "revolutionary" ideals.
This kind of supporters could be very important in the managing of the country, but i think they hardly had the numbers or the inclination to take arms in some kind of pro-french military.
The populace (the ones who fights...) was too controlled/influenced by the catholic church to support the "devilish" french in significant numbers i think.
I had always thought that Joseph Bonaparte would have been a better king that the Fernando VIII... well, anyone would have been better
I also agree with you about the disjointed and chaotic character of the insurrection.
Regards!

[Nikel]

I agree with Arsan, but perhaps it is because I am spanish too


According to Goya, who was there, this is the reponse of the common spanish people the 2 of may

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Francisco_de_Goya_y_Lucientes_026.jpg



And this is the response of the french army the same night

http://www.arikah.net/commons/en/6/6e/Francisco_de_Goya_y_Lucientes_023.jpg


The word "afrancesado" is pejorative in spanish, must be for some reason. Sure the spaniards were not very happy with the Borbons kings, french origin too by the way, but do you think they wanted a french emperor?

[Offworlder]

My whole point is that it was not so clear cut the amount of support the French enjoyed. Remember the guerillas enjoyed more support and were most active in the traditionally 'wilder' areas of Spain and those areas that were remote from central authority.

The grip of the church may have been strong (I know what I'm saying coz I'm Maltese and we followed the same pattern historically) but is not the whole picture. Consider, for example, the role of the nobles who found themselves supplanted and therefore raised and led Spanish armies. Yet paradoxically the French were tolerated in the cities (with notable exceptions like Zaragosa). I'm not saying that they were loved by everyone, but normally they didn't meet much resistance, just plain apathy. The north of the Peninsula wasn't overly hostile to the French except for the mountainous regions.

Also in some areas brigands, hiding behind a thin veneer of resistance fighters, plied their trade like normal. Due to the distance in time and scarcity of records, we have no clear idea of what was happening exactly. The Spanish records reflect only the upper and middle classes, the French cover their military efforts and the English... well don't get me started

[arsan]

Hi
Well, of course nothing is black or white... but just by comparing how the situation developed for the French in Spain and on the rest of the countries they occupied/controlled on Napoleon times (Italy, Belgium, Holland, German states, Poland, parts of Prussia and Austria...) i would say the general support in Spain was very low


Other example: on the Grand Armee of Russia in 1812 you could find units from nearly everywhere on Europe... but not from Spain

About the differences between cities/wild areas... i don't think its is related so much to the level of support of the people as the level of control the french army could impose there. On cities/civilized areas there was no easy way to oppose a big and well organized army as the french. At last not for long... check the second image posted by Nikel.
On the wild, guerrillas "ruled" and could hit and run or even control extense areas which were to big and poor for the french to be able and or interested on controling.

Cheers!

[Offworlder]

True enough!

If one wants a modern comparison (of sorts), compare the Peninsula Campaign with Russia's attempt at subduing Afghanistan. The Russians controlled the cities and main highways but rarely ventured in the highlands. Obviously there was no British army or any other regular force in the area.

The cities are rather different. Only in Zaragoza offered any real, fanatical resistance to the French under Palafox. Madrid fell pretty quickly and most of the other cities couldn't even stand a siege for one reason or another.

Another facet of the war is the almost total disregard for the attempts of the regular Spanish army to fight the French. Example, in Andalucia, the regular Spanish army made repeated efforts to stem the French offensives. Unfortunately the armies were led by lacklustre generals and repeatedly failed to stand up to the French in the open field. Yet rarely do we hear of their efforts, normally because they were denigrated by friends and foes alike. Only the romanticised life of the guerilla seem to attract the attention of writers, especially foreign ones. In the end if Napoleon wasn't occupied with his northern wars from 1809 onwards, it is concievable that Spain would have felt his wrath for a second time.

Besides the French were rather thin on the ground. Even their field armies rarely exceded 6 divisions. Forgot who said it but in Spain "large armies starve while small armies are defeated". Never was it truer than in Napoleonic times. The French army lived on requisitions, which it could not enforce on a hostile population. Only in three places did it happen to the French: in Spain, Russia and in Germany in 1813. It never had a real answer to such a situation. They had to spread out to live, yet be concentrated enough to overawe the inhabitants and ward off the occasional British strike from Portugal and continue conquering Spain peacemeal. Also Napoleon had the habit of drafting large numbers of veterans for the Grande Armee. There lay the rub...

I find that the game does strike this balance.

[PhilThib]

Forgot who said it but in Spain "large armies starve while small armies are defeated".

Francis I, king of France in the early 16th century, and an expert at being defeated by Spanish arms

[Coregonas]

Hi

From what i know, Suchet was one of the few french generals well regarded by (at least part) of the spanish population. If i not mistaken, he was charged for a time with control over Catalonia and Mediterranean coast area and was fairly good on his work there.

Jut Remember Catalan country origins are in Charlemagne. Perhaps there is some question to debate here as wiki is not the true original source, but it is clear relationship between Catalan people and french people has been really a lot stronger than with the rest of Spain.

Form wiki:
---
In Hispania, the struggle against the Moors continued unabated throughout the latter half of his reign. His son Louis was in charge of the Spanish border. In 785, his men captured Gerona permanently and extended Frankish control into the Catalan littoral for the duration of Charlemagne's reign (and much longer, it remained nominally Frankish until the Treaty of Corbeil in 1258). The Muslim chiefs in the northeast of Islamic Spain were constantly revolting against Córdoban authority and they often turned to the Franks for help. The Frankish border was slowly extended until 795, when Gerona, Cardona, Ausona, and Urgel were united into the new Spanish March, within the old duchy of Septimania.

In 797 Barcelona, the greatest city of the region, fell to the Franks when Zeid, its governor, rebelled against Córdoba and, failing, handed it to them. The Umayyad authority recaptured it in 799. However, Louis of Aquitaine marched the entire army of his kingdom over the Pyrenees and besieged it for two years, wintering there from 800 to 801, when it capitulated. The Franks continued to press forwards against the emir. They took Tarragona in 809 and Tortosa in 811. The last conquest brought them to the mouth of the Ebro and gave them raiding access to Valencia, prompting the Emir al-Hakam I to recognise their conquests in 812...
---

There were supporters pro-french (afrancesados) mostly in the literate and wealthy.

Thanks to Napoleon, we spanish people got our first constitution in 1808 (well it was imposed, but before we had no such a thing), although our schools teached us for a loooong time the first one was the one made in 1812.

[Nikel]

Francis I, king of France in the early 16th century, and an expert at being defeated by Spanish arms

I do not understand why he said that, he fought the spaniards in Italy, Battle of Pavia, for example when he was captured.

Was he talking about the enemies armies trying to conquer Spain or of the spanish armies themselves?

[Adlertag]

It should be noted that the French tried to organize in 1810 a sort of counter-guerilla in Catalogne, according to the "Moniteur Universel" newspaper (MU) with Spanish volunteers. But surely with little sucess.
Another fact is the help of some Basques people in 1814 against coalition forces at french border (MU 1814).

Extract from MU, in French, sorry :

In 1810

En 1810, les lecteurs du MU apprennent, grâce à une lettre du général Decaen, que les Français ont organisé en Catalogne une réplique à la guérilla en mettant sur pied une petite troupe, très mobile, d’Espagnols collaborateurs des soldats français ; il s’agit des « miquelets » (sic) de ce bientôt fameux Pujol, alias « Boquica », plus tard de sinistre mémoire :

« Les chasseurs de Lampourdan [sic], commandés par Poujol, et la compagnie de Gironne, tournèrent et enlevèrent la redoute de la Garriga ; les Espagnols qui la défendaient s’enfuirent par la vallée de Figuère ; les chasseurs à cheval de Poujol les poursuivirent et en sabrèrent une vingtaine. » (MU, 20 novembre 1810)

In 1814

« Depuis que l’on a commencé à former des compagnies franches, tous les Basques se sont levés en masse et harcèlent l’armée anglaise de toute part. Ce genre de guerre convient également à la nature du pays et au caractère de ces actifs et intrépides montagnards. Accoutumés à manier avec adresse leurs fusils de chasse, ils tuent souvent les coureurs et les éclaireurs de l’ennemi. » (MU, 17 janvier 1814).

[Ayeshteni]

Hi
Other example: on the Grand Armee of Russia in 1812 you could find units from nearly everywhere on Europe... but not from Spain

I think there was.

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/battles/Borodino/Mikaberidze/OrdersofBattle/c_MikaberidzeOOB2.html

4 battalions of the Joseph Napoleon (Spanish) Regiment. (mixed in I and IV Corps)

Ayeshteni

[arsan]

I think there was.

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/battles/Borodino/Mikaberidze/OrdersofBattle/c_MikaberidzeOOB2.html

4 battalions of the Joseph Napoleon (Spanish) Regiment. (mixed in I and IV Corps)

Ayeshteni

I didn't know... point taken!
But still, a regiment don't seem like too much of a contribution to the 600,000 Grande Armee
Regards!

[Nikel]

4,800 Spanish according to the wikipedia


300,000 French troops[15]
34,000 in the detached Austrian Corps under Schwarzenberg
some 90,000 Poles[15]
90,000 Germans
24,000 Bavarians
20,000 Saxons
23,000 Prussians [15]
21,000 Westphalians [15]
32,000 Italians [15]
25,000 Neapolitans
9,000 Swiss [15]
4,800 Spanish
3,500 Croats
2,000 Portuguese


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_invasion_of_Russia

[Offworlder]

Interesting Ayeshteni. Let's hope that if there were other Spanish formations in French employ, they can be traced somehow. 4800 isn't a small number - almost a brigade in strength.

@ Coregonas: Also remember the numerous French crusaders crossing the borders to fight in Spain (it was actually fashionable for a time especially for Southern French knights) and the several attempts by the French monarchy to annex Catalonia throughout the Middle Ages (usually ending in grief).

[Fern]

First of all, sorry for my poor English.

1. IIRC the Spanish troops in Russia were part of the Joseph Napoleon Regiment and a Regiment of Sappers attached to the Imperial Guard. IIRC (I write from memory) they had a high desertion rate during the campaign and part of them were former prisoners from the La Romana division. There were two battalions of the Joseph Napoleon Regiment with Davout (Dufour's Brigade of Friant's Division) and two with Eugene (Almera's Brigade of Broussier's 14th Division, about 1300 men in the¡ose two battalions in mid June 1812)

2. Don't look at the past with the eyes of the present. The Catalan and Basque nationalism are a product of the 2nd half of the 19th century and had VERY little support at first. It means that there was no Catalan nor Basque nationalism in 1808. In fact the Basques remained staunchly loyal to the crown till 2oth century, so many of the better Spanish admirals, military and conquerors were Basque people. Please remember that the Catalans did not revolted against the king in 1700. They supoported a king of Spain. Unfortunately the chose the wrong one, the loser. In 1808 they revolted agaisnt the invader like many other Spaniards did.

3.It is true that many regional Juntas were created, but ALL of were created with the aim to restore King Fernando VII and in his name and eventually a Central Junta (Junta Suprema) was created. They were the product of the collapse of the central power, so they were created in order to fill the void. Think of the American states creating local emergency state governments against an invader after the President and all his administration was taken by an enemy. Almost all Juntas in the Spanish America went for independence, but NO ONE of the Spanish ones did. Catalans and Basques stayed staunchly loyal to the King and the Nation. Catalans in fact fought rather well (please remember the "Timbaler del Bruch", the "drummer of the Bruch") and did contribute in a decisive way to the 1812 Spanish Constitution (a liberal one). The first one done by the Spanish people representatives (Joseph Napoleon's 1808 one was not)

2. At present there are many Catalan nationalists who have sympathies for the French as a sort of reaction agaisnt the rest of Spaniards, but don't think it was the same at the time. In fact it was just the opposite. There were STRONG and traditional antifrench feelings in Catalonia at that time. Specially after 1640-59

3. Besides Zaragoza two sieges there was Gerona (a Catalan city) THREE sieges. Both cities are the epitome of the Spanish popular resistence against the invader. The Spanish commander in Gerona was Mariano Álvarez de Castro. And, please, don't forget that the national heroine Agustina de Aragón was not from Aragón, but a Catalan-born woman who married a career soldier.

4. The Milicias Provinciales were a sort of trained reservists not very different from the American National Guard. Before the war the Provincial Militia regiments were regarded by the Spanish military as good as the regular regiments, so I think it is correct that Provincial militia units get regular infantry replacements. Their name "MIlicia" is missleading and should not be confused with most low quality, untrained volunteer units (most of them were named "Voluntarios", not militia) created from scratch which should be regarded as true Militia and should get replacements from the militia replacement pool

5. It is a non sense that regional armies could not mix as someone have proposed. AFAIK the Spanish armies were regarded as NATIONAL armies, not regional ones. There was no problem at mixing them.

[Coregonas]

Also remember the numerous French crusaders crossing the borders to fight in Spain (it was actually fashionable for a time especially for Southern French knights) and the several attempts by the French monarchy to annex Catalonia throughout the Middle Ages (usually ending in grief).

Yes... true

Fern points are also mostly ok

Just play Crusader Kings and you will see one of the provinces initially owned by the catalan "duke" is the Rosselló - Rouisillion now in french.

Catalonia was "released" from the french king in year 874. An independent "Count" of "minor counts" that had no king as lord.

In year 987 the "Carolingian" dinasty ended.

In 1167 the catalan count adquired the title of King of Aragon, as his mother was the heir of the title. However, as a rare law fact the Count was not liege of the king... those were two independent "reigns"... After a while, a couple more kingdoms were added Valencia and Mallorca (now spanish regions- "comunitats")

During all those years, a big part of southern france was heritage of the catalan count.

In 1213 there was a battle between the catalan and the Pope "army"... leaded by a french crusader to exterminate " albigense / cataros " heresy in southern france. As a "curious" fact, all those lands were catalan...

As nearly always in the history, catalan people were not powerful enough, and all lands north of the pyrinees were given to the french king.

After this, of course more conflict arise. leure:

In my travels in southern france, a lot of french people (mostly in the small villages) can speak to me in a similar language to catalan...! "Langue d´Oc - Occitan"

Fern:
Also, an important "anti-french" idea in part of the spanish lands (including catalonia) is the fact than in the 1700s, the borbon french dinasty (the one Fern explained catalan did not support, still kings in spain, they prefered the Austria) did eliminate all laws of the "old" Aragon Kingdom.

Although those laws perhaps were "better" from the point of view of the central government, those were not approved with a happy song chorus. They were imposed by the force of the weapons. AS a reminder, the actual "parque de la ciudadela" in barcelona was a military citadel, constructed by the borbon army to dominate the city people (not to defend the city from outer assaults), after destroying of course all the houses and areas there.... Just remember law by the force is never going to be accepted.

Napoleon 1808 constitution was also better than nothing, but all spanish people fought against (again) more imposed laws. But what if... Had Napoleon not invaded Spain, sure our Pepa 1812 constitution would be delayed several decades more.

[Fern]

In 1167 the catalan count adquired the title of King of Aragon, as his mother was the heir of the title. However, as a rare law fact the Count was not liege of the king... those were two independent "reigns"... After a while, a couple more kingdoms were added Valencia and Mallorca (now spanish regions- "comunitats")

The Count of Barcelona did not "adquire" the title of King of Aragón. Ramón Berenguer IV, count of Barcelona, married Petronila, daughter of Ramiro II "The Monk" (he was a real monk who had to reign after his brother died) and heir of the Aragonese crown. Ramón Berenguer IV never became king of Aragon, but prince. It was his son Alfonso II who inherited the titles of count of Barcelona (from his father) and king of Aragón (from his mother). I would not say the catalan count "adquired" the title of king of Aragon. His son became king of Aragón because he was the son of the Queen of Aragón.

In 1213 there was a battle between the catalan and the Pope "army"... leaded by a french crusader to exterminate " albigense / cataros " heresy in southern france. As a "curious" fact, all those lands were catalan...

It was the battle of Muret (1213). It was not a "catalan" army because the kingdom was "Aragón", so the army was called "aragonese". In fact it was not catalan nor aragones, because it was a grouping of Pedro II aragonese army and the forces of Raimundo VI of Tolosa, so it was a coalition army.

As nearly always in the history, catalan people were not powerful enough, and all lands north of the pyrinees were given to the french king.

At that time was a kingdom composed of Aragonese and Catalans. Don't forget the aragonese people, please.

Fern:
Also, an important "anti-french" idea in part of the spanish lands (including catalonia) is the fact than in the 1700s, the borbon french dinasty (the one Fern explained catalan did not support, still kings in spain, they prefered the Austria) did eliminate all laws of the "old" Aragon Kingdom.

First of all not all Catalonia was antiBourbon and pro-Habsburg in 1700-1714. Remember there were the "Botiflers", pro-Bourbon catalan people, and Cervera city got a University from Felipe V, the bourbon king, because it remained staunchly loyal to Felipe V. It was not the only catalan city loyal to the bourbons.

Although those laws perhaps were "better" from the point of view of the central government, those were not approved with a happy song chorus. They were imposed by the force of the weapons. AS a reminder, the actual "parque de la ciudadela" in barcelona was a military citadel, constructed by the borbon army to dominate the city people (not to defend the city from outer assaults), after destroying of course all the houses and areas there.... Just remember law by the force is never going to be accepted.

At the time no one remembered those mythical laws which are remembered by current Catalan nationalists. During the 18th century, American ports opened to Catalan ones (previously, for more than two centuries only one port had been authorized to commerce with America, Seville first, then Cadiz). An economyc boom in Catalonia ensued. The supression on the frontiers (and custom fees) between the Spanish regions also helped it a lot because commerce was easier and more profitable. As a rule Catalan people (the people that matter, i.e. the bourgeois people of Barcelona) was quite confortable with the Bourbon rule.

Napoleon 1808 constitution was also better than nothing, but all spanish people fought against (again) more imposed laws. But what if... Had Napoleon not invaded Spain, sure our Pepa 1812 constitution would be delayed several decades more.

Who knows. Anyway it is History-fiction.

[Coregonas]

I remember today very few people feels those nationalist ideas you are explaining... perhaps a 5% of the catalan people. I disagree with those ideas, but must expose things as they are.

In 1716 the "Catalan constitutions of 1535" were abolished. Sorry I put this small report in spanish, sure this is a debate too futile for non spanish. I copied from wiki.

" El cuarto decreto que afectaba sólo a Cataluña se dictó el 9 de octubre de 1715, despachado por Real Cédula con fecha de 16 de enero de 1716.

Abolía la Generalidad de Cataluña, las Cortes, el Consejo de Ciento.
Además se sustituía al virrey por un capitán general, al igual que en el resto de los reinos de la Corona de Aragón, y se dividía Cataluña en doce corregidurías, como Castilla y no en las tradicionales vegueries, no obstante los batlles se mantienen.
Se prohíben los somatenes (milicias populares de Cataluña).
Se estableció el catastro gravando propiedades urbanas y rurales y los beneficios del trabajo, el comercio y la industria.
Igualmente, el idioma oficial de la administración dejó de ser el catalán y fue sustituido por el castellano, aplicándose desde entonces obligatoriamente en las escuelas y juzgados.
También se cerraron las universidades catalanas que apoyaron al archiduque Carlos, trasladándose a Cervera, que se había mantenido fiel a Felipe V. "


Sure lots of rare laws were not remembered for the mass of the populace, but I assure changing your native language is something one does not forget just because a few years pass.

I m sorry but I believe this has nothing to do with nationalism, but with imposed laws... Any "poor/uneducated" person can remember this humiliation, as is talking his own childs in his language and so on. He should be forced to talk to the "powerful people" in another language...

My grandmother (is an example) had a hard work with castilian/spanish language, even he was aragonese born, as a child went away. My father didnt understood too much spanish until a brand new "regime" teacher came in 1939. He did leave school around 7 years old as was hurt by him by speaking his own catalan language.

I ve traveled by spain more than 10 years, around 600 flights lots of places ... Unfortunately today, all these good people in spain still has a hard work and confound nationalism with this. (And finally all politics add more confusion, and try to get profit)....

EDIT:
Can not explain why, but seems in the humankind some groups forget his own history with ease, and others retain it a lot more. Just think the universe is not centered in MY group, there are others...

I am explaining from the "minor" point of view of catalan, of course...

Remember every 30-60 years, the catalan people has been forced to do against his will, it is perhaps a long time for a person, but not a long time for a group.

Wiki "La ocupación francesa de Salses, en el Rosellón, con lo que la guerra llegaba a Cataluña, fue el pretexto hallado por Olivares para imponer la Unión de Armas. Sin embargo, el sistema de reclutamiento fue declarado contrario a las constituciones catalanas por la Diputación catalana, y los disturbios surgidos a raíz de la obligación de alojar las tropas terminaron creando un clima de tensión que desembocó en el trágico Corpus de Sangre (junio de 1640) y la secesión catalana, que no sería sofocada hasta 1652.":

Some important datas can be:

1640 1652 - Conde Duque de olivares. Secesion catalana
1700 - 1716 Sucesion Austria - Borbon Decreto de nueva planta
1808 - 1814 Napoleon - Constitucion 1808
1840 - 1 guerra carlista

[Fern]

I remember today very few people feels those nationalist ideas you are explaining... perhaps a 5% of the catalan people. I disagree with those ideas, but must expose things as they are.

I am Catalan from Barcelona and got a degree in early Modern History at the University of Barcelona. The problem is that I am somewhat immune to current Catalan Nationalist propaganda.

In 1716 the "Catalan constitutions of 1535" were abolished. Sorry I put this small report in spanish, sure this is a debate too futile for non spanish. I copied from wiki.

" El cuarto decreto que afectaba sólo a Cataluña se dictó el 9 de octubre de 1715, despachado por Real Cédula con fecha de 16 de enero de 1716.

Abolía la Generalidad de Cataluña, las Cortes, el Consejo de Ciento.
Además se sustituía al virrey por un capitán general, al igual que en el resto de los reinos de la Corona de Aragón, y se dividía Cataluña en doce corregidurías, como Castilla y no en las tradicionales vegueries, no obstante los batlles se mantienen.
Se prohíben los somatenes (milicias populares de Cataluña).
Se estableció el catastro gravando propiedades urbanas y rurales y los beneficios del trabajo, el comercio y la industria.
Igualmente, el idioma oficial de la administración dejó de ser el catalán y fue sustituido por el castellano, aplicándose desde entonces obligatoriamente en las escuelas y juzgados.
También se cerraron las universidades catalanas que apoyaron al archiduque Carlos, trasladándose a Cervera, que se había mantenido fiel a Felipe V. "


Sure lots of rare laws were not remembered for the mass of the populace, but I assure changing your native language is something one does not forget just because a few years pass.

A little known fact, specially by Catalan Nationalist, is that most legal documents in Catalonia were made in Latin languague, not in catalan, up to the late 17th century/early 18th century. For a peasant or small farmer there was little difference between having legal documents in latin languague (before 1714) or Spanish (since 1714). In fact it was better to have them in Spanish because he could understand it better than Latin. I learned it when I studied Paleography at the University. Don't forget Spanish was widely used in Catalonia, books were printed in Spanish, etc. In fact the current custom between Nationalist Catalan to write both last names with "i" (i.e. as in Jordi Pujol i Soley) was a custom that the Catalan nobility took from the Castilian one. Beign as much Castilian as possible was quite fasionable among the Catalan nobility at the time (16-17th century). All those things are conveniently forgotten by Nationalist who, like to think of Catalan history has a succession of oppressive acts by the castilian governments and the understandable resistence of the heroic Catalan people to that oppression.

I m sorry but I believe this has nothing to do with nationalism, but with imposed laws... Any "poor/uneducated" person can remember this humiliation, as is talking his own childs in his language and so on. He should be forced to talk to the "powerful people" in another language...

That humiliation is a product of modern nationalist who have converted Catalan history in a perpetual struggle for independence from
the rest of Spain (which they confuse with Castile). Basque nationalist do the same, but to a even greater level (there was a VERY strong racist component in Sabino Arana "thinkings"). Unfortunately for the Basque Independentists, Basques NEVER, NEVER, NEVER ever revolted against the Spanish crown, but they served it well and willingly. And lots of Catalans did the same too. I still remember the Catalan volunteers fighting for the Queen in Africa led by Catalan general Juan Prim i Prats (very catalán last names btw) in 1860, but it was before the catalan nationalist was born. Today very few Catalan people like remembering General Prim in Catalonia, who was a leading political figure in 19th century Spain, because he felt Spanish and fought for Spain glory, so hardly a nice example for Catalan nationalists with a strong tendence to independentism.

My grandmother (is an example) had a hard work with castilian/spanish language, even he was aragonese born, as a child went away. My father didnt understood too much spanish until a brand new "regime" teacher came in 1939. He did leave school around 7 years old as was hurt by him by speaking his own catalan language.

We are speaking of people who lived about 200 years ago in different policitical, cultural end economic conditions. I can't understand how your personal experiences allows you to know what those people thought two centuries ago (or three centuries ago). In fact I think your experiences and that of your family are irrelevant. OTOH if yours are relevant, then there are also mine because my mother was Catalan (from barcelona) and her mother tongue was Catalan.

I ve traveled by spain more than 10 years, around 600 flights lots of places ... Unfortunately today, all these good people in spain still has a hard work and confound nationalism with this. (And finally all politics add more confusion, and try to get profit)....

EDIT:
Can not explain why, but seems in the humankind some groups forget his own history with ease, and others retain it a lot more. Just think the universe is not centered in MY group, there are others...

I am explaining from the "minor" point of view of catalan, of course...

That's the problem of Nationalists. They think they speak for the whole Catalan people. I am catalan too, but I don't agree with them. It means that I also speak from the "minor point of view of catalan". It is just a different point of view. That's democracy and plurality.

Remember every 30-60 years, the catalan people has been forced to do against his will, it is perhaps a long time for a person, but not a long time for a group.

My God! It is always the same Nationalist tale. The Catalan people in 1700-1714 fought for the king of Spain. In 1808 fought for the king of Spain. In Africa the catalan volunteers fought for the king of Spain in mid 19th century, and before 1640 uprising, they ALSO fought for the king of Spain in Salses (ALL the Catalan nobility willingly volunteered for the fighting for the king, but it was an utter dissaster with lots of losses, so enthusiasm cooled a lot), but Catalan Nationalists have converted them in examples of catalan perpetual struggle for independence.

Wiki "La ocupación francesa de Salses, en el Rosellón, con lo que la guerra llegaba a Cataluña, fue el pretexto hallado por Olivares para imponer la Unión de Armas. Sin embargo, el sistema de reclutamiento fue declarado contrario a las constituciones catalanas por la Diputación catalana, y los disturbios surgidos a raíz de la obligación de alojar las tropas terminaron creando un clima de tensión que desembocó en el trágico Corpus de Sangre (junio de 1640) y la secesión catalana, que no sería sofocada hasta 1652.":

Don't read the wikipedia. Read John Elliot. There is a very interesting book titled "the Catalan revolt" (there is Catalan translation: "La revolta dels catalans"). IMHO J. Elliot is perhaps the BEST historian alive. Do a google search and you will see I am right. He also has a very interesting book about Olivares which is consedered the definitive one about the subject. I suggest you to read it. There is no catalan translation AFAIK, but it is worth the effort.

1640 1652 - Conde Duque de olivares. Secesion catalana

Unfortunately it was not a war for independence. They gave themselves to France. As a consequence most of Catalonia was occupied by the French army. It was not a nice occupation and Catalan people thought that French were worse than the previous Spanish army (which had been fighting the French). The traditional Catalan hate for the French comes from that fact. It is in the 20th century that it has changed due to the nationalist growing political influence.

1700 - 1716 Sucesion Austria - Borbon Decreto de nueva planta

Catalans never wanted independence. In fact they declared they fought the bourbon king because it was the best for SPAIN and declared loyal to a different king of Spain. Navarrese people chose the right king (the winer), so they kept their privileges. When you chose the wrong side, those things may happen. Prepare for the consequences. Anyway there were many Catalans who chose the winner side, but they are forgotten by the Nationalists.

1808 - 1814 Napoleon - Constitucion 1808

Popular insurrection against the French and for the king. No one spoke about Catalan independence at the time. IIRC Napoleon anexed Catalonia (in 1811?, sorry I don't remember the exact year).

1840 - 1 guerra carlista

We could say that it was a general war between obscurantism (Carlists) and enlightement (liberals). No nationalism at all, but a war between two political tendences. Carlist defended the old regime and the old privileges, but there was no independentism nor Nationalism component.

Anyway I don't think American people is interested in a discussion about Modern Catalan nationalism and their consequences after projecting them into the past.

[Rafiki]

[color="Blue"]Guys, make sure to stick to the issues of how to best portray the Spanish campaigns of the Napoleonic wars and leave discussions about what has happened since for other occasions [/color]

[Nikel]

Muchas gracias por tus comentarios Fern, son muy interesantes. Si todavia hay gente como tu en Cataluña quiza todavia haya una esperanza; pero siendo de madre catalana, debes ser la excepción que confirma la regla.

Una vez oi a Boadella decir que esto no tenia arreglo, tienen el odio tan inculcado desde muy pequeños... Y los charnegos quieren ser más nacionalistas que los aborígenes, así que...

Para ellos la gloriosa raza, que digo raza, especie catalana, ha estado oprimida por la pestilente subraza castellana desde antes de Viriato. Posiblemente ellos enseñaron a los romanos su lengua que luego derivó a esa cosa llamada latín y degeneró a esa otra cosa llamada castellano


Pero sí, como dice el moderador, este foro es para ayudar a que NCP sea mejor. Por cierto os habeis fijado que en el mapa al pais vasco le llaman Euskadia? Euskadi, palabro inventado por el racista emboinado Sabino Arana decadas despues de las guerras napoleónicas.

Cuidado, lo ha escrito ese fascista filoespañol (filocastellano) llamado Pio Moa

http://www.libertaddigital.com/bitacora/piomoa/comentarios.php?id=3218

[arsan]

Hello fellow spanish members

- Please, this is the english forum. So use english or discuss in spanish on the Spanish sub forum.
- This is a games forum. Discussion about the games or the historical background of the games are welcome, specially form members as knowledgeable as you.
But this is not the place to talk about nationalism or current politic affairs. There are a lot of other forums for this kind of discussion, as i'm sure you know
Please, behave
Regards!

[Nikel]

Yes Arsan you are right, sorry for my post, but I had to say it. And tell me how I translate "emboinado"

About the map and Euskadia, has this been reported?

[arsan]

Hi Nikel
No, i don't think it has been reported.
But this thread about NCP map improvements
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=8134
would be a good place to do it.
As you can see the idea was not too successful
Maybe when NCP gets published in spain there will be more activity there.
Regards

[Fern]

True enough!
The cities are rather different. Only in Zaragoza offered any real, fanatical resistance to the French under Palafox. Madrid fell pretty quickly and most of the other cities couldn't even stand a siege for one reason or another.

Gerona also resisted in a Fanatical way and Cadiz was besieged, but never taken. Cadiz is almost an island with a long narrow itsmus (at present, IIRC it was a true island in 1808-1814, I will check it later) and British commanded the sea, so there was no way to take it. That's the reason the Cortes (Parliament) was there. It was a quite safe place.

I would suggest that two or three Spanish cities could create locked in place one-time militia reinforcements (population in arms) if besieged. Cadiz should be an special Fortress, really difficult to be taken by assault

Another face of the war is the almost total disregard for the attempts of the regular Spanish army to fight the French. Example, in Andalucia, the regular Spanish army made repeated efforts to stem the French offensives. Unfortunately the armies were led by lacklustre generals and repeatedly failed to stand up to the French in the open field. Yet rarely do we hear of their efforts, normally because they were denigrated by friends and foes alike.

During the war the Spanish army managed to field about 100,000 men on average in diferent regional armies. It was those men which keep a sizeable amount of French troops locked in Spain and not available for the main field armies fighting Wellington. In fact Suchet, the only French general who became a Marshal in Spain, mostly fought Spaniards. He did not see British enemies until really later in the war. Without those troops the French would have been able to concentrate against the British-Portuguese forces. A frenchman (I don't remember who) said that the Spanish armies were like sparrows. It was really easy to make them fly away, but they were there again if you got your back to them.

IMHO Guerrilleros exploits have been exaggerated a lot while the Spanish army efforts at stopping the French advance has been downgraded. If you read a Spanish military history of the war, you will see that there are LOTS of little know military actions and operations done by the Spanish army. It's true that the Spanish troop quality sometimes was abismal (but sometimes was really good as in Albuera o San Marcial), but no matter how many defeats they suffered, they were able to tie a sizeable amount of enemy troops who were not able to concrentrate against Wellington.

Only the romanticised life of the guerilla seem to attract the attention of writers, especially foreign ones. In the end if Napoleon wasn't occupied with his northern wars from 1809 onwards, it is concievable that Spain would have felt his wrath for a second time.

Perhaps, but Napoleon did nothing between 1809 (after Austria was defeated again) and 1812 (Russian campaign). IIRC between those years (namely 1810 and 1811) the French empire was not involved in any war, but the peninsular one.

[Offworlder]

Wow! I seem to have unleashed a storm here! Sorry! Still it is nice to here about this period and have suggestions from the Spanish side...

Fern:"The Milicias Provinciales were a sort of trained reservists not very different from the American National Guard. Before the war the Provincial Militia regiments were regarded by the Spanish military as good as the regular regiments, so I think it is correct that Provincial militia units get regular infantry replacements. Their name "MIlicia" is missleading and should not be confused with most low quality, untrained volunteer units (most of them were named "Voluntarios", not militia) created from scratch which should be regarded as true Militia and should get replacements from the militia replacement pool"

Then if that is the case, in the game a shift in replacements should take place. With each Spanish Insurruction option, less militia and more regular reinforcements should be made available. Otherwise, as time goes on, a mass of Spanish divisions would just be made up of badly depleted units.

Fern:"It is a non sense that regional armies could not mix as someone have proposed. AFAIK the Spanish armies were regarded as NATIONAL armies, not regional ones. There was no problem at mixing them."

I wasn't really speaking about what happened historically but on the game situation. Unfortunately the AI puts all the Army HQs in one big superstack, thus negating the positive effects that HQs have on gameplay. My idea is that the provincial armies HQs should be losely affiliated to a certain geographical areas, but forces could be easily transferable, just like in every other scenario. Ex when I play the Coalition side, I always heavily reinforce Blake and use that army as my principal Spanish strike force.