Is the AI Played Out?

[richfed]

Been playing since version 1.00b ... I update to every new version and fix ... pronto. I always play as the CSA and I always - except when fiddling around a couple of times - play the full 1861 campaign [with Kentucky, since that has been around]. I always play against the AI - though I have one PBEM going now, in its early stages.

In previous versions, the AI has sometimes done some pretty surprising things. Right now, with version 1.14c - and really with all versions of 1.14 - betas included - I can expect this:

-- A pretty stiff opponent in Virginia, though nothing much happens on the peninsula other than occupation of Fort Monroe w/ a force of some 300-400 power. Once upon a time, Norfolk would be assaulted and taken at times ... but, no more. Maneuvering around the rest of Virginia can be some fun and challenge.

-- I can take and hold Texas with militia, calvary, and Rangers.

-- Some militia garrisons hold Arkansas and 3 AR/MO divisions and can easily take MO with a hard-fought culmination at St. Louis in late '62/ early 63.

-- Two northern Mississippi forces and 4-6 divisions in the TN/KY theater can pretty much do as they please.

-- With the exception of NC, there is no Union offensive anywhere approaching the deep south ... I leave a division in GA, another in the Carolinas, just in case, but they are usually not needed and end up in VA as reinforcement. The rest of the south is garrisoned with militia only - an artillery battery maybe at key locations. Florida has a Union occupation of Ft. Pickins, but nothing happens there.

-- NO attempt of a takeover of the Mississippi River ever occurs any more ... Vicksburg, for all intents, could not exist in terms of game play. Same for New Orleans. Nothing happens an either key location. In past incarnations, Memphis and Nashville were sometimes attacked - even taken, but, no more.

In effect, it's a one front game. I am able, even as the CSA, to pretty much build as needed. Yes, there is some juggling, at times, but I am able to defend the entire northern front - from VA west to Springfield, MO. I can take and hold Lexington, Bowling Green, Paducah, and Louisville fairly easily. The deep south is all mine. VA can be a slug fest, but I know I will prevail.

The game has to have an better amphibious assault mechanism to establish bases and then strong interior incursions with supply lines. Otherwise, the South is just too powerful, or the AI too timid, to really create a challanging game over a few years span.

It appears to me that the AI has slipped over the past version ... Or, more likely, mechanisms have changed within the game that inhibit the AI.

I don't know, but these have been my experiences. I know this game is about done, but, maybe, if there is ever an AACW2, this could be a top priority. Without it, solitaire play is doomed to repetitiveness.

[enf91]

Let me pre-empt Gray and everyone else. What settings are you using?

[richfed]

- Historical attrition
- Mostly, standard settings, though I give the AI more time and a slight edge in FOW. Off the top of my head, I believe everything else is at default setting.

Hey, I love this game, you all should know that by now, and very possibly the game is infinitely better for play against a human a opponent. I am just saying that the AI seems to have slipped a bit over the past months and certainly needs an overhaul if AACW is ever developed. I mean, I am able to build strong forces in both theaters ... even a third [the far west] ... and the Union does very, very little of consequence except in VA. Where is an attack in force at Donelson, Memphis, Nashville? I don't usually even engage a ship on the Mississippi near Vicksburg, and I run gun boats & an ironclad up & down the river.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Pocus]

For the AI to take the offensive, it has to have the edge in combat power. This was achieved previously by having the Union recruit massively new troops. Are you seeing this build up in the early part of the game?

[richfed]

Hmmm ... then it may be the fact that the USA can't draft till March '63. [Using QF5]. I will try the full campaign WITHOUT Kentucky and see if that assists. Or, maybe just use QF6?

[Pocus]

I don't know, can be that. What I know is that the AI plays conservatively, compared to a player. It means it can really gives you a run for your money if there are more troops on its side, otherwise it will be mostly defensive. Make a test, play the CSA in the 1864 Campaign. If you feel Athena is playing aggressively and make you sweat, then my job is done

[enf91]

Can't you set the AI to play more aggressively?

[W.Barksdale]

It's because of the KY mod. The restriction of drafts without adjusting the volunteer call accordingly really messed up the balance. The Federals just don't have enough soldiers.

[Lew]

It's because of the KY mod. The restriction of drafts without adjusting the volunteer call accordingly really messed up the balance. The Federals just don't have enough soldiers.

I actually saw the AI having problems before this. People were writing AARs about huge, relatively well-organized AI armies, but in recent patches I never saw any of that. The AI kept poking at me with single divisions or corps. I don't believe I've ever seen Athena operate what I'd consider a reasonably well-optimized field army.

[Franciscus]

It's because of the KY mod. The restriction of drafts without adjusting the volunteer call accordingly really messed up the balance. The Federals just don't have enough soldiers.

I admit that I have not played AACW for awhile, but I think that some of the changes of the KY mod (not necessarily the invasion chit) are better suited for PBEM. Any changes that can hypothetically limit or hamper the AI in anyway can only have deleterious consequences. Delaying the available manpower, although probably historical, and suited for a PBEM (correct me if I am wrong) can only make Athena's life as USA more difficult.
Note that the same reasoning is IMHO valid to other changes or features, like delaying divisions and corps.

[tagwyn]

If she is too easy in KY mod then I just won't use it. This is troubling for me. Please keep this going. t

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Gray_Lensman]

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[Spharv2]

Gentlemen:
I'm really looking forward to working with any new database rework in MOD format "ONLY" going forward. That way all the leure: can sit back and play the game in its "static" legacy form and only those interested in applying the rework in MOD form will have to do so. Eventually with the feedback help of those "willing" playtester players we'll get it adjusted to performing correctly.

Oh yes, I think I did state outright that the KY work was a test:

Good deal, once VGN research and testing is done or at leas slowing down a bit, I really want to get back into AACW and start learning to do some modding. I did a bit a long time ago, then got caught up in life. I'd like to learn to do some work with the AI and see what hoops I can get it to jump through.

[W.Barksdale]

Gentlemen:


I'm really looking forward to working with any new database rework in MOD format "ONLY" going forward. That way all the leure: can sit back and play the game in its "static" legacy form and only those interested in applying the rework in MOD form will have to do so. Eventually with the feedback help of those "willing" playtester players we'll get it adjusted to performing correctly.

Gray, please don't confuse my feedback with crying. I've played many many many games pbem and against the AI. You stated that recruiting was the same in KY apart from a delayed draft and I gave you my feedback on games taht I've played with these delayed drafts, mind you using the vanilla scenario.

In fact, I'm looking forward to seeing your version of the game. If you ever want a game be sure to pm me.

[Pocus]

I believe people (generally speaking, I'm not targetting directly Barksdale here, even if he is one of the recurring complainer) should have more gratitude toward Gray_Lensman, overall. Sure, you can always find things to discuss and debate in some of the changes done, but frankly without him, AACW would be a much less polished product than it is.

That said, everybody should strive to remain polite with each other. No need to attack directly people or make sharp replies...

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Gray_Lensman]

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[Gray_Lensman]

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[Colonel Dreux]

Been playing since version 1.00b ... I update to every new version and fix ... pronto. I always play as the CSA and I always - except when fiddling around a couple of times - play the full 1861 campaign [with Kentucky, since that has been around]. I always play against the AI - though I have one PBEM going now, in its early stages.

In previous versions, the AI has sometimes done some pretty surprising things. Right now, with version 1.14c - and really with all versions of 1.14 - betas included - I can expect this:

-- A pretty stiff opponent in Virginia, though nothing much happens on the peninsula other than occupation of Fort Monroe w/ a force of some 300-400 power. Once upon a time, Norfolk would be assaulted and taken at times ... but, no more. Maneuvering around the rest of Virginia can be some fun and challenge.

-- I can take and hold Texas with militia, calvary, and Rangers.

-- Some militia garrisons hold Arkansas and 3 AR/MO divisions and can easily take MO with a hard-fought culmination at St. Louis in late '62/ early 63.

-- Two northern Mississippi forces and 4-6 divisions in the TN/KY theater can pretty much do as they please.

-- With the exception of NC, there is no Union offensive anywhere approaching the deep south ... I leave a division in GA, another in the Carolinas, just in case, but they are usually not needed and end up in VA as reinforcement. The rest of the south is garrisoned with militia only - an artillery battery maybe at key locations. Florida has a Union occupation of Ft. Pickins, but nothing happens there.

-- NO attempt of a takeover of the Mississippi River ever occurs any more ... Vicksburg, for all intents, could not exist in terms of game play. Same for New Orleans. Nothing happens an either key location. In past incarnations, Memphis and Nashville were sometimes attacked - even taken, but, no more.

In effect, it's a one front game. I am able, even as the CSA, to pretty much build as needed. Yes, there is some juggling, at times, but I am able to defend the entire northern front - from VA west to Springfield, MO. I can take and hold Lexington, Bowling Green, Paducah, and Louisville fairly easily. The deep south is all mine. VA can be a slug fest, but I know I will prevail.

The game has to have an better amphibious assault mechanism to establish bases and then strong interior incursions with supply lines. Otherwise, the South is just too powerful, or the AI too timid, to really create a challanging game over a few years span.

It appears to me that the AI has slipped over the past version ... Or, more likely, mechanisms have changed within the game that inhibit the AI.

I don't know, but these have been my experiences. I know this game is about done, but, maybe, if there is ever an AACW2, this could be a top priority. Without it, solitaire play is doomed to repetitiveness.

I play the exact same way that you play. And I experience the same things. I'm waiting for the legacy patch to start playing again so I can edit/mod away with it.

I like the 1.14 patches, probably because the Union does a lot of historical like moves in Virginia and North Carolina. However, and I've always found this since I started to play AACW, is that the Union AI is weakest in the Tennessee/Kentucky/Mississippi Valley area. I have yet to even see an approach on New Orleans. Never does the AI put together a big ole force, stick Grant in charge and head straight South. They do attack, but it is with a brigade or two, and they always get stuck somewhere and become unsupplied. What I'd love to see happen is the Union AI have a methodical way of going about it's attacking. Instead of sending a brigade through the Appalachians to attack Atlanta, I'd prefer an an army attack Bowling Green or Donelson first, or an attack on New Orleans.

Just want to back up your comments basically.

[Pocus]

Somehow this was to be expected of the AI, it plays conservatively, so will first try to get superiority in the most important theater, then only if this is done (and when you play her I guess it is very rare) it will try to send forces to increase its presence in secondary theaters.

Some tests would be interesting to do, like reducing (there is a command for that) the AI interest for the East theater and see if it rebalances forces toward the others.

[W.Barksdale]

Okay... now break this down and qualify it for me to use.

In your opinion "playing with delayed drafts"... Did it work out reasonably well for the PBEM games themselves? (Please ignore the AI game side effects for now, they can be compensated for later with future changes using "player vs AI only" specific event designs.)

Personally, I felt the Federals didn't have the manpower for a big push in the first half of 1862. I think the slower pace really helped the rebels.

First priority must be to defend Washington and try to threaten Richmond. With McDowell or McClellan, and Butler you need a big advantage in numbers just to defend. Farther west the Generals are better, however, most gains were usually erased by the rebel counter attack in the second half of 1862.

Trying to open a new front with a coastal invasion invites disaster by drawing potential reinfrocements from the above theatres. In the west the rebels can't go too far, however, in the east they only need to go as far as Washington.

In all 3 games I found Federals are still busy trying to secure objectives in 1863 which historically were taken early in 1862.

By this time it should be (technically) possible for a Federal player to easily defend Washington, control much of Carolina coast, control most of KY and MO, the Ohio and Cumberland Rivers and threaten the middle Mississippi, as well as have at least one sea born invasion started or in the works.

Note that all these games were rebel victories. As the Federals, the rebel held out until the end date. As the rebels I held out until the end date. The other the Federal player gave up in 1864 citing not enough forces. Also IIRC this was back in 1.09 and 1.10.

Does anyone care to do an AAR with the April scenario but using the historical draft dates? There has been significant improvements since 1.10 and it will be interesting to see if these have changed anything.

I'm about to start a pbem as the federals already, so, I'd prefer to take rebels here if anyone is interested

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Pocus]

Gentlemen, an important news!

Athena was crippled since some weeks!

I have returned into AI development since 2 weeks, and today, while checking the AI missions, I saw that all the Attack/Defend goals received a final interest value of 0, meaning they were never chosen. And these goals are perhaps the most important of the game... What remained where the 'specialties' missions (a good 20 or so), which can do a good job, but don't suffice to play well (by definition, all missions are needed or the AI is missing half of her brain).

Fixing back this bug (I don't really know why the line was commented out) is helping significantly the AI, from what I see. I have hope that people will have the feeling in the next patch to meet once again good old 1.13 Athena AI, with some more improvements what's more! (not everything done in VGN can be added to AACW, but still, some quality new code will be in, expect the unexpectable ).

Stay tuned, we will discuss with Michael of the next patch ETA. If some people can volunteer to test first the new executable, this can help spot issues, if any.

[richfed]

Thank you, Pocus!!! I knew something was amiss!!

[arsan]

Very encouraging news!!

[vonRocko]

Wow,I felt something wasn't right.

[gchristie]

If some people can volunteer to test first the new executable, this can help spot issues, if any.

Volunteer reportin' for duty! Would be pleased to help with this.

[Franciscus]

Pocus, you are great. Thanks.

I would not mind at all trying a beta executable, but will only have some free time after October 7th