This game need changed Victory Conditions

[viper73]

I really like the effort put into this game by Ageod, but there is one glaring thing missing. A dramatic change in victory conditions. There is no reason for the Army of Northern Virginia to have captured everything from Pittsburg to New York City and find the South has not won the Civil War. My word they dont even have the historical resources for it. The North should be suing for peace or there should be a European intervention long before Jubal Early is having a cup of Coffee in Times Square! Then again maybe Mr. Lincoln desired for Colonel Shaw of the 54 Mass. to Meet StoneWall in Boston for some peach preserves!

Likewise, there is no reason for the North to hammer every major army in the South and find that they have not won the war and united the nation because some of Jebs horseman are running around the tip of Florida.

Please, I know its late in the game, but can we change some of these dynamics if possible? This game is great up until you reach the point of either sitting against the AI or being forced to take control of the entire Eastern Seaboard with the Confederate Army and marching on Dayton, Ohio in the West.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[soloswolf]

If you know you won, what's the issue?

I agree that maybe it should be clearer. But if this is all for a screen to say: YOU WON!!! What's the big deal?

[viper73]

The issue is the war would have been long over before Confederates Marched into Dayton, Boston and New York. That being said, the same applies for the Union on the other end. Sorry, I would just prefer some of the Harry Turtledove options to be altered. This is a great game, but for all its attempted realism, this is one glaring issue.

[Gray_Lensman]

The issue is the war would have been long over before Confederates Marched into Dayton, Boston and New York. That being said, the same applies for the Union on the other end. Sorry, I would just prefer some of the Harry Turtledove options to be altered. This is a great game, but for all its attempted realism, this is one glaring issue.

I already gave you a truthful answer above and that's where the issue will remain for now. If you want faster results, I sincerely suggest you learn to make game file modifications yourself and get back to me with your independent work. I could actually use the help. Thanks for the feedback.

[Pocus]

It is easy to create an event that will change the victory levels anyway...

[ghostlight]

Glad to hear that reworking AI priorities is on the table. This is imho the best strategic wargame ever. But I want to play it where historical strategies make sense gamewise.

I understand pbem is dominated by exploits--deep cavalry raids, unusual troop mixes, rush building, etc. Fine, that's probably unavoidable, gamers are smart and will always find ways around the designers intentions. But then I'd like the AI to play in such a way that it feels like I'm playing an oppenent with historical priorities. Since I like to play CSA, that means the Union AI focuses on 1) Controlling the entire length of the Mississippi river, 2) Breaking through Kentucky and Tennessee to knock these states out of the war but also to get through the mountains and into the soft underbelly of the Confederacy, 3) Richmond and Virginia, 4) Blockade and naval operations.

In my--admittedly limited--experience, the AI is only good at #3, going after Richmond. If the AI is capable of a sustained offensive to get to Chatanooga and then Atlanta then I apologize, I just haven't seen it yet. But this is where the war was actually won, imo.

So anyway, amazing game, beautifully designed and a blast to play. My favorite strategic game ever. But not truly historical until there's a way to play it historically.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[berto]

Try playing AACW hot-seat solitaire, then will yourself to play a mix of historical strategies (not always the same plan).

Versus playing against the AI or playing PBEM, with playing hot-seat solitaire you lose something (mainly FOW, but you can fake that), but you gain something, too (mainly a "better", historically minded opponent).

There is a Third Way.

[biggp07]

Is hot seat solitaire simply playing to another email of your own? Just want to be sure.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[berto]

To play hot-seat solitaire:

• In the AI options menu, turn off AI processing.
• In the appropriate options menu, turn on FOW (Fog of War). (Try to "forget" what you know about the other side's whereabouts and intentions. Plan your turns based on what you actually now see through the current side's FOW.)
• When you are finished playing the first side, save the turn, return to the game menu, then in the Load Game menu, load up the other side. Play it (and maybe save it), then (after having loaded, played, and saved both sides), only then press the Next Turn button.
• Keep loading/playing/saving/advancing to the next turn until the end of the game.

Cumbersome, but it works.

Note that there is nothing to prevent you from planning your moves for one side (and saving), then loading up and planning moves for the other side (and saving), then loading up the first side again, then the second again, then the first again, etc., planning a single game turn back and forth between the two sides as much as you please--before pressing the Next Turn button.

<edit>
Gray beat me to it!
</edit>

[Gray_Lensman]

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[berto]

You actually don't have to turn off AI processing, as long as you save each sides' moves, but I do it anyhow, just to prevent cumbersome time consuming extra AI unit moves during my testing process.

Or, for that matter, the AI moving units that you don't want moved.

[ghostlight]

It is absolutely not the design intent of AACW to make the game rigidly conform to the exact sequence of military events that took place during the Civil War itself.

Don't believe I said that. In fact, it mischaracterizes my position, albeit unintentionally I'm sure. And just so there's no misunderstanding:

I've been playing wargames for over 45 years. (As I've gathered Gray has as well.) The reason that DFE (design for effect) games 'work' is that it is impossible to recreate "historical resource availabilty" other than at the most abstract level. Crunching numbers is not the same thing is marching, feeding, and fighting with flesh and blood men and horses. And although it's way cool to have a completely historical OOB and general placement, that doesn't make the game a simulation.

The only Union objective that mattered was the complete subjection of the CSA and the elimination of it's ability to wage war. The only objective of the CSA was survival. Lincoln, Davis, and their generals knew this, and their plans reflected this reality (sometimes inperfectly). The Union couldn't have won without capturing and holding Richmond, Atlanta, Memphis and New Orleans, just for starters. And that means with substantial infantry forces, not a deep cavalry raid. Anything else misrepresents history. And there are really only a few ways of doing that. The road to Atlanta leads through Chatanooga, barring a major amphibious landing on the coast.

Now, I know there's no such thing as a perfect game, much less a perfect Am Civil War game. But I am suggesting that if we're really interested in making the game more historical at the single player level, finding ways to steer the AI in these directions, is more important than finding new tweaks in general rankings.

This said with utmost respect for everyone involved in making the game as amazing as it already is.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[ghostlight]

Understood, and thanks for your response.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Pocus]

AI can be improved either by coding improved algorithms (me, and I'm doing that these days, see 1.12RC5 for a partial list of improvements) or by scripting (the volunteers). It exists 2 important commands in the script engine that truly allow the AI to think differently, and Clovis did good work with them in his mod, if I understand well.

As for playing in hotseat, there is also the possibility, if your PC has 2 gigs+ of RAM of launching twice AACW, one using the CSA turn, the other using the USA turn and switching between the 2 apps.

[berto]

As for playing in hotseat, there is also the possibility, if your PC has 2 gigs+ of RAM of launching twice AACW, one using the CSA turn, the other using the USA turn and switching between the 2 apps.

Cool, I need to try that.

In future I wish you would make hot-seat (solitaire, or human-vs.-human) more straightforward and a full-fledged, fully endorsed, programmed-for, and supported mode of game play on a par with human-vs.-AI and PBEM. For example, mention it in the manual an in on-screen options. It shouldn't be a rather obscure hack that one only discovers by chance in the forums.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[berto]

I agree that the advantages aren't obvious, but it seems that Pocus has tried it and sees some merit to it. I'm guessing that with save after every side move, the file sharing between the two AACW instances is transparent and automatic. Either way, it's still cumbersome, though.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Gray_Lensman]

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[Pocus]

You are not playing with two installations with my proposal, but with two instances of the same installation. So you are pointing on the same saves directory, with two executables.

So it means a bit less of manipulation, as you save your turn as USA, then alt-tab to bring the other instance of AACW (CSA), do your turn and end it. With my method, you don't have to go to the main menu.

As I said: "slightly less manipulation". Not a big deal

[berto]

Actually, it does specifically describe how to play the game PBEM in the game manual, and in the case of AACW, hotseat is a form of PBEM where you don't have to send the files back and forth, but it doesn't exactly state it that way in the manual.

Okay, but after reading the manual and playing the game for a while, it comes as a surprise to me and others that, looking at PBEM in a different way, hot-seat play is possible. It's not immediately obvious, is it?

Ideally, I'd like to see hot-seat go something like this: When you start the game, you choose hot-seat play. You play one side, then while still in play mode (no exiting to the game Main Menu), alongside the Next Turn button you see an Other Side (or whatever) button that refreshes the map and forces for the other side. When done playing the other side, only then do you press the Next Turn button. If by chance you play one side but somehow forget to play the other, if you press the Next Turn button it warns that you have not played the other side. All this without having to go into and out of menu screens. Without having to remember saving game files (it's all done automatically). And all fully documented.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Gray_Lensman]

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[Pocus]

Well hot seat is not advertised much because it defeats the purpose of having a simultaneous turn based engine, heh?

[Rafiki]

But, to follow on the idea, you can almost have LAN play, by having one person run AACW at the computer, and another person remote terminal to the same computer and run the same installation of AACW?