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Korrigan
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"Comments after Two Complete Campaigns" by gryphon_james

Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:39 pm

I'm importing this gryfon_james' post from the MATRIX forum as I found it quite interesting to read.

Original can be found here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1871800

Due to a recent back injury, I finally had time to extensively play ACW after owning the game for some time.

My background is a semi-retired computer wargamer, now focused mostly on board wargaming. I consider VG Civil War to be one of the best wargames, and certainly the best Civil War strategy game to date.

So, after two games against the AI as both the Union (victory in mid-1863) and the Confederates (victory in about 10 turns), I would say that I am very impressed with most of the game. However, there are a number of issues that would make me not likely to play it again in it's current form. I am hopeful that some of the criticism below could make it into a future patch and I could revise my opinion.

The game is clearly too complex for even a gifted AI to understand. A few points:

1. As the Confederates, desparate economic actions were initiated from the beginning (full mobilization, inflationary actions, etc.). By 1863, the AI didn't seem to be able to build troops any further. The Union AI seemed to do the same thing, although this game was much shorter so I don't know what impact it would have had. The AI selection of inflationary items should be the result of setbacks, not plan #1.

2. As both sides, the AI is constantly making deep raids into enemy territory. As done by the Confederates, it was somewhat effective until I figured out a solid militia/cavalry countermeasure. From that point, it was merely a nuissance to keep chasing units on their way to Chicago and fix the railroads. At several points, however, the Confederate strategy ended with very large armies backed into corners with massive losses. This was without putting the AI on aggressive. As the Union, the AI was a complete game-breaker. Seemingly every Union leader made a charge for Atlanta as soon as possible - Lyon was surrounded and killed around Memphis, all of the western units dove on Texas, etc. The main failure was when the entire Army of the Potomac decided to advance partway down the Shenandoah and then stop. A simple assualt on Washington ended the game. The AI needs some force preservation instincts.

3. As the Confederates, the AI finally lost in 1863 when a single division marched from Fort Monroe to Richmond basically unmolested. This was with numerous stops by Halleck due to inactivation.

4. Teleporting Commands: You really should be able to make the computer have zero of the instant relocations. This really makes a joke out of planning an offensive based on where enemy forces are. I think I fought AS Johnston and EK Smith on every single front, every other turn.

So, the Confederate AI can put up a fight, but is pretty easily lured into countless traps that will bleed it to death by the middle of the war. The Union AI, on the other hand, doesn't seem able to make any coodinated attacks that would actually threaten the Confederates, and has little, if any, skill to prevent the loss of Washington.

Okay, so the AI is just to learn the game, why don't I just PBEM the game? There are actually several issues that I think could be easily changed. If the game was shorter or simpler, I wouldn't consider these to be major issues. As a game that will take dozens and dozens of hours to play, these items become game breakers:

1. Activation: Yes, this can be turned off, and I would have to do so. The idea is that non-activated leaders move slower and fight badly. This is not a bad thing. As it works though, it becomes a very gamey item as you just have to reshuffle commanders to get want you want done, esp. in 1862+ once you have extra leaders. A worse aspect of this is that inactivated leaders can't choose an offensive stance - not bad on the surface until you realize that a defensive army will let the other army pass - quite the easy way to lose Washington, even though you had the whole AoP in between the Confederates and Washington. I also don't understand why you need activated leaders to build forts or form divisions - this is just a pain. McClellan, the poster-child for inactivity, seems to have been able to form divisions and dig in just fine.

2. Promotions: This is a more serious issue. As I understand this, you must promote the leader the turn he is due for promotion or you lose it. In a game that you have dozens of things to do every turn, adding this little micro-managment item is silly. It goes beyond silly when you have to move the leader out of his current command to promote him, or you take a huge VP loss because you promoted someone with less seniority. This is carrying the whole seniority bit too far. For army commands, this is understandable - you only have a limited set of army commands and the stakes are high. For lower-level generals, the level of managment it would take to try to get certain generals into combat ahead of certain others is impossible, esp. with only a one-turn window for each promotion. Suggestion: Make all of the promotions automatic, as in the VG boardgame. When a general is due for promotion, he gets promoted without any player input. Or, if players still want management of this, have a pop-up that asks Y/N on each promotion that is due - without VP costs for promotion ahead of seniority.

3. Army change of Command: This mostly works, although I question if McClellan is really worth 300 VP when high taxation is only 25 VP. If the player replaced every general that Lincoln actually replaced, I think you would end up with negative VP. The main problem is this; say you replace McClellan with Grant as Grant now has higher seniority - cool, no VP cost. However, now McClellan is still in the game, so every army command change you make must always consider McClellan first. Again the suggestion is follow the board game - when you remove a general's command, you have the option to remove him from the game completetly. I think once you have a passed a general over, the political cost has been payed, it shouldn't come up again.

4. Naval Cohesion: Even though I checked the option to have naval units not lose cohesion, they still seemed to keep losing it - does this feature work?

5. River Forces: While I made many attempts, I could never enforce a naval blockade on the rivers. The computer is always able to cross rivers at will; I don't know if I didn't have enough ships in enough areas, or if it was confederate ships moving in and out of the spaces, but the Confederates constantly slipped units into Illinois, Ohio, and Indiana. There really should be a way to easily blockade a river and prevent this.

The above items are the ones that would prevent me from wanting to PBEM the game. Considering the dozens of hours I played, I also found several elements of the game were not worth the 'mental overhead' to deal with. Maybe I missed something, but in a boardgame, I would consider removing or abstracting several things:

1. Loyalty screen - losing VP to get martial law of dubious impact?

2. Economics screen - Aside from building trains and river transport, didn't see the point - I didn't industrialize the North and yet never had any serious issues with supplies of any kind.

3. Political Options - most of these seem to be no-brainers (emancipation, blockade) or never used (territorial concession).

4 Unit purchases - this could really get streamlined - does it really matter if you have 10lb or 12lb cannons at this scale? Why does the North need to purchase brigs or armored frigates; the blockade flotillas and normal frigates seeem to be all you need. Support units; can't you assume the North probably has these (field hospital, signals, etc.) and the South doesn't and just factor it into the army HQ?

5. Blockade - I never bothered with the brown-water blockade due to the micro-management and lack of feedback. How can you judge if closing of a port is woth the cost of the ships? Is it really worth it for the North to put transports at sea (and escort them) when they have plenty of supplies? This would be a much more interesting area if you had some charts or something that would tell you what you are accomplishing.

gryfon_james

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Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:15 pm

Hmmm... all in all some pretty dead-on points from someone who appears to have a fresh perspective on AACW. I guess it's going to take more time to try and get Athena to "act accordingly"- particularly with the AGEOD guys having their plates so full right now.

Not really much more to say about this. Oddly enough, I have been noticing a general slowdown in posting and "progress" (if that's the right word) in the last several weeks. It is summer though, so that isn't unexpected.

Regardless, AI programming is one of the more difficult and tedious tasks out there- at what point does AGEOD run into the law of diminishing returns and have to say "no mas!"?

Hopefully I end up being wrong.
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Korrigan
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Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:30 pm

You're right.

It's summer vacations here in France. We'll be on 50% staff till end of August. Right now, the house is being guarded by Hok (WIA project leader) and Celtic (WIA Coder).

Regarding Athena, the work will never stop as AACW Athena will benefit from the work in WIA Athena for example.

However, Pocus has recently introduced two new commands in the Modding section allowing to strategically tweak Athena. Pocus is focused on VGN, hence he won't have time to look much more into this but this new command he coded is a wonderful tool for modders.

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=9752

Cheers,

Korrigan
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." Mark Twain



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Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:56 am

His AI comments don't help much since he didn't mention what settings he used. I've never seen the US AI go haring off toward Georgia myself, and I've played quite a few games. The cavalry raids are a point that has been brought up before, and it is definitely an issue.

I kind of agree with his point on activations, but don't see that as something that can be changed. The potential should be there for an inactive commander to let an enemy slip through without a fight, though not if slipping through means the enemy would be in Washington or Richmond. Putting one lesser, activated leader on offensive would stop it, but could lead to a very uneven fight in the worst case scenario. Frankly I'm okay with that.

I do like the pop-ups for promotions idea, It would make things a lot easier on the player, those message boxes can be pretty long on active turns. I agree with removing generals from the game, but would never do it, easier to just shufle them off to a non-critical area, that way they're still around if something unforseen happens.

As for his last points...eh. Sounds like he needs to play a bit more to get a grasp of them honestly. The only one I agree with is the Loyalty screen. Never touched it myself, and I've never seen it have an impact one way or the other. Always wondered if it was working properly.

Industrialization, more important for the South, obviously, though I've managed to run into problems with supply as the North in a PBEM or two when I neglected it.

Political options...obviously, they're all no-brainers so long as you're winning, it's when you're losing that the other options come into play.

Completely off on purchasing, "Support units; can't you assume the North probably has these (field hospital, signals, etc.) and the South doesn't and just factor it into the army HQ?" no, no you can't quite frankly. The availability and quality of all of these support systems varied army to army, Some Southern armies had more support than some northern armies, while the most technically advanced army wasn't the ANV or AoP, it was the Army of Tennessee.

I won't disagree with him asking for more visible blockade effects, but he sounds like he's only using transports for supplies? No invasions? I suppose a lot of players basically disregard the navy a good bit because there isn't the instant gratification from it like there can be with the army, but the navy can be a very effective tool to use.

Still, a different view. I'd love to see the AI improved as much as it's possible to do. Doesn't sound like he's going to give it another go, but I'll say this, if you fiddle with the options, chances are you'll find the settings that will give you a pretty good challenge. Not going to be perfect, but still, a lot more of a challenge than you're likely to get in (2 or 4, not really clear on that point) a couple of go rounds.
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gryfon_james
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the actual poster responds...

Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:38 am

I took the advice from the Matrix site to look around the Ageod site some more and noticed this. The responses so far have shown me that I was probably too quick to judge the game - looks like a lot of development still may be going on.

Anyway, I'll try to clarify some of the questions raised:

1. I don't recall all of the AI settings, but the aggression was normal, and I limited the AI to all of the rules a player would have (no extra forces, etc.). I realize this made the game easier, but I just can't stand playing AIs winning because they are doing something I couldn't. Personal preference, I guess. I exaggerated about the Georgia attack a bit, but I think every leader the Union had did something aggressive if it wasn't locked. The AI certainly moved Lyon into Kentucky, invaded all the rest of Kentucky, sent all the western cavalry into Texas/Arkansas, and one corp of the AoP deep down the Shenandoah while the rest of the AoP stayed in Harper's Ferry area. Seeing no chance to stop the aggression head-on, I attacked Washington and ended the thing...

2. My activation complaint is more of a wish maybe - wouldn't it be useful to set a force to not attack a force just because it moves in, but do attack it if it tries to move through? Kind of a 'screening' move that I think even an inactive/poor general could do. In the boardgame, I would do such a thing with McClellan reaction moves - stay between the AoNV and Washington, but give ground to avoid a fight if possible. Note that in the boardgame, McClellan still has a potential chance (die roll) to screw this up and let the AoNV slip past. Such an option would be really nice to have with the river fleets on defensive to avoid cohesion losses - blockade ground troops trying to move through, but attack a Confederate fleet if it is trying to move through.

3. I really still see the need to make the promotions, esp. one to two star, far less micro-management and VP penalty due to seniority. As I noted on a later post at Matrix, I don't think the Commander-In-Chief would really get involved in one to two star promotions, or lose political capital for promoting a battle-winner. A change of army command, would certainly have large (if maybe not 300+VP large) potential for political impact.

4. For the features I didn't think necessary, it's not that I don't think they have any impact, it is that I don't think they have an impact worthy of spending time on. Perhaps my request in this area is more feedback-based; if there was a log book, ala Europa Universalis that would show you trends on supplies, inflation, comparison to the Confederates, etc., maybe the value of the some of the things I didn't use would stand out better.

5. For the extra units, the question is if the units really add something to the game. For instance if you played a game where you never purchased them, versus one that you did, could you really distinguish the effect? As the North, I easily had enough money to put one of the support units with every Army, so it felt like a nuisance item, esp. since they could only be built in Washington.

6. For the transports, I did see the value of the them for invasions and building depots. The Union naval campaign is actually one of the more interesting aspects for me; I wouldn't bother with a strategic Civil War game that didn't have it. What I couldn't understand is why you would want to put transports in the shipping box, just to get shot at by Confederates - the amount of money and supplies brought in didn't seem to justify the bother of escorting them. Back to the old boardgame version, the Confederates earn VP for being in the blockade box, and this is the reason the Union must hunt them down. Instead of modeling some type of economic impact of the Confederate raiders, just abstract it to a VP item.

Another question from the further Matrix post - Did an army commander ever get relieved and replaced by a lower seniority general (i.e. due to failure instead of a 'normal' replacement by a higher seniority general) and still have a significant command later in the war?

In the end, I would really just like to see a change to the promotion and army command change systems. These items are tough for me to accept - removing the detail that doesn't seem to dramatically impact gameplay (IMHO) is just a philosophical thing - a PBEM opponent can always prove me wrong.

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Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:45 am

gryfon_james ... What version are you using? The AI has been enhanced over the last few patches. I play incessantly. Don't see results like yours. Anything can be improved, of course. The good news is this game constantly is!!!

Stick with it!!!

Rich [an old Avalon Hill gamer!]
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Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:43 pm

Hello Gryfon, thanks for joining us.

gryfon_james wrote:I took the advice from the Matrix site to look around the Ageod site some more and noticed this. The responses so far have shown me that I was probably too quick to judge the game - looks like a lot of development still may be going on.

Anyway, I'll try to clarify some of the questions raised:

1. I don't recall all of the AI settings, but the aggression was normal, and I limited the AI to all of the rules a player would have (no extra forces, etc.). I realize this made the game easier, but I just can't stand playing AIs winning because they are doing something I couldn't. Personal preference, I guess. I exaggerated about the Georgia attack a bit, but I think every leader the Union had did something aggressive if it wasn't locked. The AI certainly moved Lyon into Kentucky, invaded all the rest of Kentucky, sent all the western cavalry into Texas/Arkansas, and one corp of the AoP deep down the Shenandoah while the rest of the AoP stayed in Harper's Ferry area. Seeing no chance to stop the aggression head-on, I attacked Washington and ended the thing...


I would say agressiveness would be preferable to passivity for an AI, unless it leads to you being able to walk into Washington. :) Given the North's superiority in manpower and weaponry, even in the early years of the war, what you experienced was probably about what would have happened with the proper leadership. I believe that usually I only give the AI a bonus for spotting as the main deficiency in the AI "thought pattern" is it's inability to really plan ahead, so I give it a small FOW bonus to help it cope. Oh and if I'm playing as the South, I always give the North an activation bonus since otherwise they're too crippled by inactivation to do much. The AI can't deal with that as easily as a human can.

gryfon_james wrote:2. My activation complaint is more of a wish maybe - wouldn't it be useful to set a force to not attack a force just because it moves in, but do attack it if it tries to move through? Kind of a 'screening' move that I think even an inactive/poor general could do. In the boardgame, I would do such a thing with McClellan reaction moves - stay between the AoNV and Washington, but give ground to avoid a fight if possible. Note that in the boardgame, McClellan still has a potential chance (die roll) to screw this up and let the AoNV slip past. Such an option would be really nice to have with the river fleets on defensive to avoid cohesion losses - blockade ground troops trying to move through, but attack a Confederate fleet if it is trying to move through.


Would be interesting, bu don't know how easy it would be to program into the AI behavior. Early on in beta, there was an issue where the AI would refuse to defend Washington at all, and would instead build up the AoP in Baltimore basically leaving DC open, so at least we've got them in front of the city now. :) It might be preferable to have your force retreat toward the capital when an enemy force moves without activation. The problem would be making sure it was only toward the capital (And only in the specific instance of these two armies) so you didn't fail to activate and retreat right past the spot you need to defend. I can't recall having this be a big issue in my games, though I rarely come at DC from the south, usually it's from the north after a sweep to the west of the city.

gryfon_james wrote:3. I really still see the need to make the promotions, esp. one to two star, far less micro-management and VP penalty due to seniority. As I noted on a later post at Matrix, I don't think the Commander-In-Chief would really get involved in one to two star promotions, or lose political capital for promoting a battle-winner. A change of army command, would certainly have large (if maybe not 300+VP large) potential for political impact.


I think you might be surprised, this was one of the most politicized wars in history. Both sides had their presidents doing detail work that honestly wasn't necessary. One stars aren't necessarily political, but once you started bucking for that second star, everything you did could be construed as such. Hooker, Sickles, Pope, even poor Burnside, who tried to stay out of it, were used for political ends, and did the same to others. Luckily we don't have to deal with the whole is he a Republican or Democrat thing here, but going for two stars meant you were hitting the level where your name could really be used.

gryfon_james wrote:4. For the features I didn't think necessary, it's not that I don't think they have any impact, it is that I don't think they have an impact worthy of spending time on. Perhaps my request in this area is more feedback-based; if there was a log book, ala Europa Universalis that would show you trends on supplies, inflation, comparison to the Confederates, etc., maybe the value of the some of the things I didn't use would stand out better.


I agree with you here, I'd like to see more stuff...even if the majority of players would never use it, it would be nice to have available. I'm not privy to AGEOD's farr flung plans of world domination, but I guarantee you that this will be improved (Along with much more in depth battle reporting). Just not sure when that'll happen. Truthfully, things like this have to go into the "Wanted, but not particularly urgent" category, which means they'll get passed by in favor of the more important bugs and glitches and things.

gryfon_james wrote:5. For the extra units, the question is if the units really add something to the game. For instance if you played a game where you never purchased them, versus one that you did, could you really distinguish the effect? As the North, I easily had enough money to put one of the support units with every Army, so it felt like a nuisance item, esp. since they could only be built in Washington.


Actually, they can show up other places too, it's just that they more often are organized in the capital. Yes, you could distinguish the effects. They might not have an impact in every battle, but over the course of the war or even a couple of months to a year you'd notice it. If there was some way to play two exactly identical games side by side one with and one without, I think it would be pretty obvious. Of course, you can play an entire game without purchasing anything but base battalions with the 6 lbrs and such, I think that's how my first few went in Beta. :) But once you start using the different units, you'll see the difference. It's small, these things shouldn't be game changers after all.

gryfon_james wrote:6. For the transports, I did see the value of the them for invasions and building depots. The Union naval campaign is actually one of the more interesting aspects for me; I wouldn't bother with a strategic Civil War game that didn't have it. What I couldn't understand is why you would want to put transports in the shipping box, just to get shot at by Confederates - the amount of money and supplies brought in didn't seem to justify the bother of escorting them. Back to the old boardgame version, the Confederates earn VP for being in the blockade box, and this is the reason the Union must hunt them down. Instead of modeling some type of economic impact of the Confederate raiders, just abstract it to a VP item.


Why would the Union put transports in the shipping box? Because that's what determines how much naval transport capacity you have. If you want to resupply those naval invasions without running supplies manually, you need plenty of shipping in there. They do bring in the random odd supply and money, but the real value is for your naval supply routes to places that don't have a land connection to the supply lines.

gryfon_james wrote:Another question from the further Matrix post - Did an army commander ever get relieved and replaced by a lower seniority general (i.e. due to failure instead of a 'normal' replacement by a higher seniority general) and still have a significant command later in the war?


Define "significant" Both Hooker and Burnside were relieved and went back to have pretty successful corps commands. That's generally what I do with my discarded army commanders, put a not-so-good army commander like McClellan under a very good army commander like Grant, and you have yourself a very good corps commander considering the bonuses he receives from the army commander. Especially considering the bonus attributes he has, which can be useful. If you have a good enough army commander, he can make almost any corps commander at least useful.

gryfon_james wrote:In the end, I would really just like to see a change to the promotion and army command change systems. These items are tough for me to accept - removing the detail that doesn't seem to dramatically impact gameplay (IMHO) is just a philosophical thing - a PBEM opponent can always prove me wrong.


Well, if you want to impact the updates for a game, or perhaps the design of it's successor, you're in the right forum. You won't often find a group that is more amenable to customer input. And generally, if something can't be done, you'll be told why, which is pretty nice. :coeurs:
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further answers

Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:31 pm

Thanks for all of the responses.

I used the version 1.10 9May patch from Matrix site.

The shipping box does make sense now, somehow missed that that was directly related to supply over sea, rather than just the message each turn of war supplies and money received.

I guess it boils down to three features that I would like to have to 'have it my way' rather than 'something is broken'

1. A option toggle to automate promotions without VP impact.

2. When relieving an army commander, an option to demote them back to two stars, remove them from the game, or just remove them from army command.

3. Some way to order a stack to prevent movement through a space, but otherwise to remain passive; don't attack an enemy unit just because they moved into the space, only if they continue movement.

Again, thanks for the responses and the warm welcome.

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Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:25 am

About 3. If you have (almost) full military control of a region, i.e. more than 95% (which you'll usually have if you have a stack of certain size there, especially if they a few turns in the region), the enemy will be forced to assume offensive posture upon entering the region. This will force him to seek combat, vene if he starts the move in defensive posture, and no matter the posture of the defender.

In general, I just want to say that anyone who gives the game a good chance and who is willing to come and offer constructuive criticism and thereafter take the discussion that may or may not ensue, will always be welcome; glad you decided to take the trip over here :)
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Great!

Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:16 pm

Korrigan wrote:Regarding Athena, the work will never stop as AACW Athena will benefit from the work in WIA Athena for example.

However, Pocus has recently introduced two new commands in the Modding section allowing to strategically tweak Athena. Pocus is focused on VGN, hence he won't have time to look much more into this but this new command he coded is a wonderful tool for modders.

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=9752

Cheers,

Korrigan


Whew! :nuts: Good to know Korrigan. Thanks.

I am very encouraged by these new commands you mention. Hopefully they can be used by our talented cadre of post-production modders to stiffen Athena's resolve to "woop" our collective hindquarters! :niark:

Have a great summer,
pw
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Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:43 pm

Spharv2 wrote:while the most technically advanced army wasn't the ANV or AoP, it was the Army of Tennessee.


Spharv2, not to sidetrack this thread, but could you forward me some info about what you are talking about with the Army of Tennessee?
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Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:27 pm

gryfon_james wrote:1. A option toggle to automate promotions without VP impact.

2. When relieving an army commander, an option to demote them back to two stars, remove them from the game, or just remove them from army command.


Howdy!

I sure you have seen/can anticipate the VP/NM effects that the current system brings to the table. For obvious reasons, it is much more of a hurdle for the Federals. This combined with the poor leaders they start with keeps their lage stacks bumbling, more than rumbling in the initial months.

I have found the current set-up enough of a thorn to simulate hisorical difficulties, but not big enough to really get in the way. In summary, I like the set-up now, but I don't see the harm in the option if it is a) easy to create and b) something people really want to see.

Regarding your second thought... I think it's neat, but I get the idea it would be tough to make it happen.

Glad you dig the game! (mostly :niark: ) Try WiA also! Lotsa fun!
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Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:27 pm

Doomwalker wrote:Spharv2, not to sidetrack this thread, but could you forward me some info about what you are talking about with the Army of Tennessee?



I'd like a link too!
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Spharv2
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Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:27 am

Doomwalker wrote:Spharv2, not to sidetrack this thread, but could you forward me some info about what you are talking about with the Army of Tennessee?


Give me a bit to dig out the books, I'm reorganizing my library at the moment, so I basically have a room full of large piles of books waiting to be sorted and put back up. Might take me a while to get through the stacks to find what I'm looking for. :)
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Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:12 am

Spharv2 wrote:Might take me a while to get through the stacks to find what I'm looking for.


If you meant Sherman's Army of the Tennessee:

  • mobility
  • foraging
  • high rates of fire (Spencers & Colts)
  • excellent artillery
  • demolition
  • rail repair
  • road & bridge building
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Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:04 pm

Spharv2 wrote:Give me a bit to dig out the books, I'm reorganizing my library at the moment, so I basically have a room full of large piles of books waiting to be sorted and put back up. Might take me a while to get through the stacks to find what I'm looking for. :)


No worry, I am in no hurry.
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Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:07 pm

Jabberwock wrote:If you meant Sherman's Army of the Tennessee:

  • mobility
  • foraging
  • high rates of fire (Spencers & Colts)
  • excellent artillery
  • demolition
  • rail repair
  • road & bridge building


Very interesting points Jabber, I was reading up on the Spencer yesterday. Man, that thing looks like it would have been the SMG of its day.
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Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:35 pm

Doomwalker wrote:Very interesting points Jabber, I was reading up on the Spencer yesterday. Man, that thing looks like it would have been the SMG of its day.


Ripley (Head of Ordnance) didn't want to distribute them because he thought they would either cause the armies to run out of ammunition, or require massive supply trains.

To get back on track, gryfon has some very good points. Here are my opinions:

AI1. This annoyed me from the beginning, but there were always bigger fish to fry. Eventually I just accepted it. Seems like it wouldn't take much to tell Athena that optimal times to take financial and draft options are at the beginning or end of the cycles, and that she shouldn't always knock them out right away. This is especially true in the full campaign, where there are no reinforcements available until June '61.

AI2. There are some modder initiatives underway that could address this directly or indirectly. (I think officialization is already planned if they pan out). I see two underlying problems, deep targeting, and reaction time (2-week turns).

AI3. This is a similar issue to deep targeting, and will likely get fixed the same way.

AI4. It should be possible to turn it all the way off. I personally like it, but I play mostly PBEM, except for testing.


PBEM1. Activation worked better as a rule when there were less leaders. The game was originally designed with 35 leaders total. Now we have @200. Shuffling is gamey. I should know. :niark: Having activation is better than not having it, so I don't think this is a high-priority item for most players. Correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't seen well-considered proposals on how to replace or fix activation, that I remember. There is no reason unactivated leaders shouldn't be able to form divisions. They can dig in, just not build forts, and I'm ok with that.

PBEM2. The automatic seniority drop that makes promotable leaders unpromotable is silly. If there was a random chance (25%?) that any general above his promotability threshold could lose seniority, that would be better. We should be able to promote several leaders of the same level at the same time without worrying about which one will actually get promoted first at turn resolution. More automatic promotion ... and leader death or other removal events, would be welcome. I don't think a pop-up is a great solution. I think modders have shied away from this area because of the early issues with entire stacks disappearing.

Side question - is there an event command to disband a division?

PBEM3. Every general should be dismissable if they lose seniority beyond their original level, either from battle or from getting passed over. There should be a cost attached.

PBEM4. I think the option is supposed to reduce cohesion loss from travel but not eliminate it, but then I never use it. Naval stacks will always lose cohesion if they are left in attack stance. IMO, they lose too much from this.

PBEM5. I don't know why gryfon had this issue. I can make the current system work adequately. I've made my opinion clear in other places as to how I think this should work, and don't need to reopen that can of worms in this thread.


R1. Needs to be rethought or dropped. Nobody has a good use for it as is.

R2. I'd like to see more testing with the latest version (there have been changes) before I comment on this.

R3. Emancipation should be available earlier, and have a higher cost, that decreases based on NM and VP. I'd like to see partial blockade or close ports options that had different political effects. I'll probably have to write that one myself, someday ... Any option suggestions are welcome.

R4. Yes it does matter. No you can't assume. Now that free blockade flotillas have been added to the July scenario, I find myself questioning why there should be so many for free.

R5. How about a message of what each blockaded port is losing? "Richmond's trade has decreased due to your blockade. (-X$, -X GS, -X Ammo, -X WS)".

Thank you, gryfon, and belated welcome to the forums.
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Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:48 pm

By the way, welcome to the forums Gryfon. Sorry for sidetracking it earlier, I tend to get a little trigger happy when I see something that interests me like the discussion on the AoT.

Now, on to the discussion about the points you raised.

1. I personnally agree with you about this one. It makes my decision about what choices to make way to easy when the AI takes the maximum everytime. I would like to see the AI limited in what options it can take.

2. I have just recently noticed this one starting to occur after I upped the AI's advantage in the FOW option. Before this, the AI tended to only penetrate about 3-4 regions in, now it is making runs way to deep to sustain its combat effectiveness. I have been trying to experiment with a lower FOW advantage, but I am still getting strange results. I would like to see this option changed to where the AI can "see" further, but not necessarily act upon what it sees "right now".

3. I have seen several instances where the AI leaves vital locations open to attack. Not too sure, but maybe a change of VP values would help, or something needs to be added into the code to tell it not to evacuate all forces from the region to attack another.

4. My only thoughts on this are remove them completely for single play. I can see how they would work for PBEM, but for single play I am with you.

I myself haven't played any PBEM games, and will leave that part alone for the veteran PBEM guys.

As far as your list of removing things. I would have to say that I would just keep them the way they are. Granted I don't use the loyalty, economic, and political options most of the time, but it does give me something to try. For instance I may play one game completely without them, and the next using everyoen I can. As far as the unit and blockade portions, I would definitely not touch either of these.

Enough rambling by me, please stick around and enjoy the game. It really is one of the best game that I have seen on this subject in a very long time. I think you will grow to enjoy it very much also.
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Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:49 am

Jabberwock wrote:If you meant Sherman's Army of the Tennessee:

  • mobility
  • foraging
  • high rates of fire (Spencers & Colts)
  • excellent artillery
  • demolition
  • rail repair
  • road & bridge building


Whoops, yep, that's who I was talking about, though before Sherman took over. Amazing how much difference one little word can make. :)

Rosecrans and Thomas already had the army well on it's way to it's peak efficiency before Sherman took over. Sorry, can't find my books, and the only one I can remember off the top of my head is "The Warrior Generals" by Buell (No relation to the general), but somewhere in my mess I've got a couple books on the Army of the Tennessee. :)

To expand a bit on what Jabberwock said:
They had dedicated rail repair units with precut sections and repair materials to repair not only base lines, but bridges and such very quickly.

They had the first full brigade armed with Spencers, Wilder's Lightning Brigade. Basically a brigade of dragoons mounted on anything that could trot to move fast and lay out a ton of fire.

Thomas' HQ had the first fully self contained mobile HQ. Basically a wagon with everything needed for his staff, cartographers, and telegraph operators that could be folded up and hitched up in minutes to move quickly.

The army also had the most well developed and supplied ambulance corps of any of the armies. To the injured, I figure this was probably the most important of any of the things the army excelled in.

BTW, if you haven't read it, the book I mentioned earlier is a good read, I'd recommend it if you can find it somewhere.
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Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:37 pm

Spharv2 wrote:Whoops, yep, that's who I was talking about, though before Sherman took over. Amazing how much difference one little word can make. :)

Rosecrans and Thomas already had the army well on it's way to it's peak efficiency before Sherman took over. Sorry, can't find my books, and the only one I can remember off the top of my head is "The Warrior Generals" by Buell (No relation to the general), but somewhere in my mess I've got a couple books on the Army of the Tennessee. :)

To expand a bit on what Jabberwock said:
They had dedicated rail repair units with precut sections and repair materials to repair not only base lines, but bridges and such very quickly.

They had the first full brigade armed with Spencers, Wilder's Lightning Brigade. Basically a brigade of dragoons mounted on anything that could trot to move fast and lay out a ton of fire.

Thomas' HQ had the first fully self contained mobile HQ. Basically a wagon with everything needed for his staff, cartographers, and telegraph operators that could be folded up and hitched up in minutes to move quickly.

The army also had the most well developed and supplied ambulance corps of any of the armies. To the injured, I figure this was probably the most important of any of the things the army excelled in.

BTW, if you haven't read it, the book I mentioned earlier is a good read, I'd recommend it if you can find it somewhere.


Ah ok, that make sense then. I will have to check that book out, I love any material I can get on history.
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