Leader relocation and AI

[Franciscus]

One of the design decisions that to me was misterious and frustrating is the fact that all leaders appear in the capitals. That this was also true for other players is shown by the fact that the main reason for the famous leader mod and a few others more or less based on it was precisely to try and make the various generals appear on the historical correct regions, and that Gray_Lensman is now thinking of changing the vanilla scenarios on the same line.
PhilThib recently, on another thread, wrote a few words that probably went relatively unnoticed but have a tremendous importance:

Warning: one of the reasons we had all the leaders pop-up in the same location (i.e. the capital) was to help the AI-side. It is easier for her to redistribute generals from a central location than to collect them from all over the territory and redistribute them

If that is so, and knowing that the majority of players play versus the AI, than:
- The vanilla scenarios should not be changed
- The leader mod (and others) is crippling the AI and should be reworked (my "simple" mod also, but that would be easy, because making 2 sub-mods, to CSA vs AI and USA vs AI would be extremely easy)

I think that this point should be expanded further by the devs and discussed in the forum

[Jabberwock]

My question to the Phils would be, is this as much of an issue for Athena since she got the relocate abilty?

[Pocus]

This is no more an issue.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Franciscus]

I agree completely with you, Gray.
Let me say that if you want, check my "simple" mod, as the changes are mainly historical relocation of the vanilla leaders, and this may facilitate your work. I am currently playing a grand campaign as CSA with this mod, and although the AI is doing interesting moves (notwhitstanding a Texas fixation - but that's another problem), in terms of forces organization it is early 1862 and she has not created a single army HQ, although lots of small divisions - using also their 2 and 3 star generals to lead them (McClellan is leading a divion stationed in StLouis, Fremont another in the farwest, etc. ). But I do not know if this is a problem of vanilla AI or if this is caused by the relocation...

But it would be extremely easy to solve this as a mod, making events for CSA vs AI and USA vs AI, in which the relocation of AI generals would not be changed.

Hope that I was clear, as I am a bit tired as I write this

[Pocus]

In fact I don't see how piling the generals in the East help more the AI now, compared to distributing them to their original location??

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[arsan]

Hi

I can't know for sure, but i would bet the problems with the USA AI on the leader mod are more related to changes made on the number of the *** and ** star leaders than for the relocation around the map of the * star leader you get for free each year.
Another example, this time with the CSA on the leader mod is that you cannot form divisions until end of 61 and don't have any ** on the east.
A human player can still do something with this history based limitations, but i imagine the Ai would be drove crazy by this: huge command penalties, no way of forming corps (except using Joe Johnson)...

I would seem to me that distributing the * star leaders around the theaters should help the AI more than annoy her. She would not be forced to decide and makes so much "teleportation" around.
I will check my current campaign on the leader mod as the Ai player (USA) and see if i could find some clues about it. I´ll report later
Regards

[Clovis]

Hi

I can't know for sure, but i would bet the problems with the USA AI on the leader mod are more related to changes made on the number of the *** and ** star leaders than for the relocation around the map of the * star leader you get for free each year.
Another example, this time with the CSA on the leader mod is that you cannot form divisions until end of 61 and don't have any ** on the east.
A human player can still do something with this history based limitations, but i imagine the Ai would be drove crazy by this: huge command penalties, no way of forming corps (except using Joe Johnson)...

I would seem to me that distributing the * star leaders around the theaters should help the AI more than annoy her. She would not be forced to decide and makes so much "teleportation" around.
I will check my current campaign on the leader mod as the Ai player (USA) and see if i could find some clues about it. I´ll report later
Regards

The Ai is acting like the Human player: she fights with penalties, waiting to form divisions when possible.

Frankly, I'm using such a restriction in my mod since 10 months, I used too a version of the leader mod and I don't see any of the problems voiced here. The AI is shifting leaders from east to West nad vice-versa, fights with stack offensively and defensively, merging or splitting stacks. I've really yet to read, rather than general assesment, detailed examples of AI failures...

[Coregonas]

perhaps adding some of the "dispersed" leaders a turn early could help, as AI had more time to redistribute them?

But this should help also us humans

[Pocus]

yes I would think that adding some 1* a bit everywhere can help the AI, she is slower than you in finding a solution to problems.

[arsan]

The Ai is acting like the Human player: she fights with penalties, waiting to form divisions when possible.

Frankly, I'm using such a restriction in my mod since 10 months, I used too a version of the leader mod and I don't see any of the problems voiced here. The AI is shifting leaders from east to West nad vice-versa, fights with stack offensively and defensively, merging or splitting stacks. I've really yet to read, rather than general assesment, detailed examples of AI failures...

Clovis,
You can read my problems with the AI o the Leader Mod i posted some days ago here
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showpost.php?p=69818&postcount=29

In this same thread Franciscus also states that the USA on his campaign has failed to make any army or corps stack.
To me thats an important problem, although i don't know the cause and i don't think its related to the redistribution of leaders as i stated above

Regards

[arsan]

Hi again!

I have been checking my Leader Mod campaign as the AI side (USA). I will report what i have seen and what i think could be the things on this mod that upset the AI.

The mod uses a very modified setup with leaders number of stars that are very historical and very good for PBEM but i suspect don't make life easy on Athena.
When the USA receives his big easter army on Washington/Alexandria, unlike on the vanilla campaing, it arrives as a big stack, not formed as an army under McDowell, as McDowell is only a ** on the mod.
The only *** USA leaders (not counting Scott who is **** and permanently locked) are Halleck and McCLellan which appear on the western theater and latter or at least locked in place some turns.
It seems the AI has severe problems moving one of this leaders to the east to make an army when they get available

On my game, on october 61, Halleck is on Cairo locked (don't know why, maybe he was wounded ? ) And McClleland is strollin alone around Kentucky going from Evansville to Louisville.
They have no HQ unit near. The two HQ USA units are: one on Ashland (east Kentucky) stacked with Fremont (** star on the mod) and some units and the other loaded on a non moving transport on the middle of the Chesapeake bay with Burside and some brigades (don't ask me why ).
It seem to me USA its not going to form an Army anytime soon... leure:

And no army means no corps, no organization, huge CP penalties and no offensive power.
Look at the attached screen below.
That is the main USA stack under Banks. He have 80.000+ men, a lot of divisions, supply units... and a whooping combat value of 82!!! because they are at nearly zero cohesion from moving up and down the north of the bank of the Potomac going nowhere.
They have not seen a single battle since the game began, but notice some of his elements are half red. I suspect because they have not lied still enough time to fully regain the strength they lack when they appear on turn 3 or 4.

As i see it, the distribution of *star leaders is not the problem. USA has plenty of leaders around the map and 15 or so divisions formed.
I think teh problem is the changes on the command chain.
It seems the Ai needs some helps (*** leaders and HQ units stacked together for example or appearing as the same time) to organize his main armies.

If some other players could give info on the development oh their campagns against the AI with this mod, it will be very helpful.
Maybe i had been just very unlucky on mine

regards

[lodilefty]

Hi again!

I have been checking my Leader Mod campaign as the AI side (USA). I will report what i have seen and what i think could be the things on this mod that upset the AI.

The mod uses a very modified setup with leaders number of stars that are very historical and very good for PBEM but i suspect don't make life easy on Athena.
When the USA receives his big easter army on Washington/Alexandria, unlike on the vanilla campaing, it arrives as a big stack, not formed as an army under McDowell, as McDowell is only a ** on the mod.
The only *** USA leaders (not counting Scott who is **** and permanently locked) are Halleck and McCLellan which appear on the western theater and latter or at least locked in place some turns.
It seems the AI has severe problems moving one of this leaders to the east to make an army when they get available

On my game, on october 61, Halleck is on Cairo locked (don't know why, maybe he was wounded ? ) And McClleland is strollin alone around Kentucky going from Evansville to Louisville.
They have no HQ unit near. The two HQ USA units are: one on Ashland (east Kentucky) stacked with Fremont (** star on the mod) and some units and the other loaded on a non moving transport on the middle of the Chesapeake bay with Burside and some brigades (don't ask me why ).
It seem to me USA its not going to form an Army anytime soon... leure:

And no army means no corps, no organization, huge CP penalties and no offensive power.
Look at the attached screen below.
That is the main USA stack under Banks. He have 80.000+ men, a lot of divisions, supply units... and a whooping combat value of 82!!! because they are at nearly zero cohesion from moving up and down the north of the bank of the Potomac going nowhere.
They have not seen a single battle since the game began, but notice some of his elements are half red. I suspect because they have not lied still enough time to fully regain the strength they lack when they appear on turn 3 or 4.

As i see it, the distribution of *star leaders is not the problem. USA has plenty of leaders around the map and 15 or so divisions formed.
I think teh problem is the changes on the command chain.
It seems the Ai needs some helps (*** leaders and HQ units stacked together for example or appearing as the same time) to organize his main armies.

If some other players could give info on the development oh their campagns against the AI with this mod, it will be very helpful.
Maybe i had been just very unlucky on mine

regards

I've seen similar things with my personal C&C mod.
Maybe we need to have the 'McClellan Events' actually combine lil' Mac with an HQ unit, and move him to DC. The event code is a bit challenging, and runs the risk of disrupting a stack where Mac already is leader. However, if it's part of the mods where there are no 3* until the Mac event, the worst case is he'd be running a Division. May have to keep him locked to avoid this. [no big deal, he's almost useless anyway!]
I would make all of this an 'AI only' event.

[If I weren't busy doing WIA stuff, I'd try to write this. Maybe later]

[Jabberwock]

They have no HQ unit near. The two HQ USA units are: one on Ashland (east Kentucky) stacked with Fremont (** star on the mod) and some units and the other loaded on a non moving transport on the middle of the Chesapeake bay with Burside and some brigades (don't ask me why ).

Athena clearly does not recognize the demotions of Burnside and Fremont.

[lodilefty]

Athena clearly does not recognize the demotions of Burnside and Fremont.

Doesn't Burnside start as 1* in vanilla? [been so long that I played vanilla, I can't recall]. I know Banks starts as 3*.

If it were Banks floating in the bay, I could start to worry about Athena's ulterior motve: "put a crummy General to sea and let him starve". Alas for the poor troops along for the ride.....

Maybe Athena has created a prison ship, to save the expense of transport to the Dry Tortugas......

[Jabberwock]

Doh! Sorry. Arsan, where are Butler and McDowell in all this mess?

[arsan]

Doh! Sorry. Arsan, where are Butler and McDowell in all this mess?

Not far...
But on a locked stack commanding a division and an a brigade
Look at the screen...
regards!

[Clovis]

So the problem is limited to the army formation as It seems AI is able to form divisions.

I guess then this difficulty isn't tied to the entry location of leader but the old difficulty AI has with creation of formation needing an HQ. It was the case with divisions, it seems to be the same with armies.

I myself long time ago eased AI by giving an HQ to A S Johnston when appearing in 1861 to form the Tennessee army.

[arsan]

I myself long time ago eased AI by giving an HQ to A S Johnston when appearing in 1861 to form the Tennessee army.

That sounds like a pretty sensible step

I know nothing about modding, so i don't know if it would be feasible but having some kind of "AI only" events that helped Athena organizing her forces in a roughly historic (and effective) way would be a very welcome addition.
On the vanilla scenarios, the east armies already comes formed, but on the west, the AI needs to create his Tennesse/Mississipi/Kentucky's... armies.
A little help for her would be welcome.

I agree with you about the *leaders relocation. It should not upset the AI, what is more, i bet it would help her.

Regards

[Clovis]

That sounds like a pretty sensible step

I know nothing about modding, so i don't know if it would be feasible but having some kind of "AI only" events that helped Athena organizing her forces in a roughly historic (and effective) way would be a very welcome addition.
On the vanilla scenarios, the east armies already comes formed, but on the west, the AI needs to create his Tennesse/Mississipi/Kentucky's... armies.
A little help for her would be welcome.

I agree with you about the *leaders relocation. It should not upset the AI, what is more, i bet it would help her.



Regards

Yes there's an event condition "CheckAIlevel" for creating AI only events. Events can even be restrained to the most difficult AI levels.

For myself, I hope work on AI ( for the engine) will produce a clever Athena this year. Tweakings of rules are good but I feel it's high time AI to be fully able to cope with the organization rules ( army formation, composition of divisions are yet lacking) and the amphibious moves. From my modest modder point of view, the AGEOD priorities should include that pretty shortly. The strategic, operational and tactical parts of the engine are working shamesly, even if not perfect, the events scripting tools and other modding tools are covering a large majority of the needs ( the most glaring exception being events with multiple choices but from I've read BOA2 should adress this point), the GUI is good. Now I will always stress how important the better the AI the best success for a computer game.

That's not to say Athena to be cureently sub par. She knows most of the basics and put a creditable stand. But she can do better. And I know it's time consuming to program AI.

[Pocus]

Arsan: The gathering of both leaders under W. Scott is ok for me, it is part of the thinking of the AI to reform the biggest stack possible at the capital if there is a threat. She can break it if the threat goes away or is reduced though, don't worry.

Clovis: I know and access like you the priorities. I would like (and will) to spend more time on the AI. New things will come, but I can't say when. In 2008 anyway