joe
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Recovering strenght points

Tue May 22, 2007 7:26 pm

When I was looking at the FAQ I came across this section regarding recovery of strenght points. "What you need is to let the 4 element recover hit points. For that you must be in supply, in a region with a city (target a level 2 city at least), and with an excess in supply points. That being done, you will see that the regiment will gradually recover by absorbing replacements from the force pool ( these, obviously, must also be available).

My situation is ,for example, a 4 element regiment with only one strenght point in each element. They are in full supply with plenty of excess supply points but they went 8 or 9 months before they began to recover and then it only took three months to fully recover.

My guess on why it took so long was there were no replacements in the force pool for those eight or nine months since I had plenty of excess supply chits.

Can you please tell me how many replacements are added to the force pool and when does that occur. (Please keep in mind I am not referring to the full elements received that are used to replace understrenght regiments with less than 4 elements)

Thanks

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Pocus
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Wed May 23, 2007 6:26 am

if this is the BOA FAQ, then it is wrong. In BOA replacements are free when it comes to recovering hits points.
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kgsan
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Wed May 23, 2007 5:23 pm

Pocus wrote:if this is the BOA FAQ, then it is wrong. In BOA replacements are free when it comes to recovering hits points.



Pocus,

In another thread you stated that:

Pocus wrote:got one of your save, there is no bug, but a rule was forgotten :)

The rule is that, even if recovering hits is 'free', replacements-wise, in BOA, it is not entirely free.
You need supply chits in excess in the region to recover hits, and one supply chit is used for each sub-unit (element) that need to recover hits.


So I was under the impression that you had to have an extra supply chit present for each element recovering strength points. However, if I'm reading your response here correctly it sounds like you don't need any extra supply chits to do so. Am I confusing two different concepts?

ussdefiant
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Wed May 23, 2007 5:28 pm

the city needs to have extra supplies avalible above and beyound what is needed for the units to simply sustain themselves.

This makes the supply situation even more horrific for the Brits, as they are frequently sending lwo suppply warnings when wintering in Boston, Phily, New york etc. and their units never seem to receive any replacements, as opposed to new elements.

This problem is excaberated by the fact that it apparently takes one supply chit for each element in a unit to repair itself, which means that pratically no portion of the British army will be able to rapair itself over a winter. It seems overly harsh to me, considering the problems the brits have in getting replacement elements as it is.

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Pocus
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Wed May 23, 2007 6:29 pm

you don't need a replacement to recover hits in BOA, but you need additional supply chits. Sorry for the confusion.
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kgsan
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Thu May 24, 2007 12:38 am

Pocus wrote:you don't need a replacement to recover hits in BOA, but you need additional supply chits. Sorry for the confusion.


OK, thanks Pocus. You only need replacements where an element is totally destroyed. You just need an additional supply chit to bring up the strength of a surviving element. Do you also need additional supply chits for each replacment unit?

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Carrington
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Thu May 24, 2007 5:17 am

ussdefiant wrote:the city needs to have extra supplies avalible above and beyound what is needed for the units to simply sustain themselves.

This makes the supply situation even more horrific for the Brits, as they are frequently sending lwo suppply warnings when wintering in Boston, Phily, New york etc. and their units never seem to receive any replacements, as opposed to new elements.

This problem is excaberated by the fact that it apparently takes one supply chit for each element in a unit to repair itself, which means that pratically no portion of the British army will be able to rapair itself over a winter. It seems overly harsh to me, considering the problems the brits have in getting replacement elements as it is.



Probably a reasonable representation of the constraints they faced -- they weren't forced to hire Hessians for nothing.

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Pocus
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Thu May 24, 2007 6:28 am

kgsan wrote:OK, thanks Pocus. You only need replacements where an element is totally destroyed. You just need an additional supply chit to bring up the strength of a surviving element. Do you also need additional supply chits for each replacment unit?


no, in this case you just need to be in supply.
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

joe
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Wastage

Thu May 24, 2007 5:46 pm

Thank you Pocus for clearing the FAQ regarding the use of a force pool to restore the strenght of elements.

You had mentioned in a previous post that even if a city shows on the screen 25 supply chits per turn, that number may be reduced by wastage, which isn't apparent to the player.

Can you please indicate what that percentage might be and when it might occur. That will help in planning for the worst case.

I'm also curious if that reduction is to supply chits (say 25 chits times 20% wastage) or is it a reduction to actual supplies (25 chits times 5 times 20%).
I don't know if it even makes a difference.

Thanks again for your response.

Jagger
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Thu May 24, 2007 6:29 pm

The wastage is tied to the supply chit. A supply chit equals 5 food/water/general supply points and, dependent on location, 2 ammo points. Supply is issued as one full supply chit. So supply is issued in minimum 5 supply point chunks. One supply chit is available per each supply level of a supply source.

Yet many units do not need exactly 5 food/water supply points. Many units only need 4 food/water supply points but regardless, they will receive a full supply chit of 5 food/water points. The excess point is lost as wastage.

Example. A full militia unit typically needs 8 food/water supply points to remain at full supply. So when supply is issued to the unit, it receives 2 supply chits of 10 food/water supply points to meet the units requirement of 8 food/supply. Since it only needed 8 supply points, 2 points are lost as wastage.

Game Example. I have a formation with 8 full militia regiments. My tooltip will state that the formation needs 64 supply points to remain at full supply-8 supply points per regiment. A supply source of level 13 will provide 5 supply points per level or a total of 65 supply points. So that source should work fine in maintaining supply for your 8 militia regiments, right? Wrong!!

You will need a supply source with a minimum of 16 supply level to provide supply for your 8 militia regiments because supply is issued in minimum chunks of 1 supply chit or 5 supply points. Each of those 8 regiments will receive 10 supply points even if they only need 8 supply points. So you need a source which will provide 80 supply points which is equivalent to 16 supply level.

Clear as mud, right...yes, but it works.

As a rule of thumb, I look for 2 supply levels per each 4 element infantry, artillery and cavalry regiment. I look for 1 supply level for each supply wagon, bateaux and irregulars. IIRC, transports and navy warships need 2 supply levels per each ship. Everything in a region needs supply except the leaders.

A unit with less than the full 4 elements will often need less supply. A two element artillery or infantry or cavalry unit will typically only need 1 supply level. Being understrength (amount of red coloring) has no impact on supply needs. The number of existing elements is used to calculate supply.

To confirm exact supply needs for a unit, separate the unit so it is alone. Then just put your tooltip over the supply kettle icon over the unit window. It will give you the exact supply points needed for the unit.

joe
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Thu May 24, 2007 6:58 pm

Thank you Jagger for the response. I agree that is how it works.

I was curious if the wastage fluctuated during the year, say 10% during the summer and a much higher percentage during the winter, which would explain why my elements seem to recover strenght points much quicker during the summer as opposed to the winter.

For example ,a British Regiment that has suffered strenght loss in all four elements would require 2 supply chits for normal supply plus 4 extra supply chits to being recovering strenght points. A city with 6 supply chits should suffice. However, with a wastage percentage ( that's the number I would like to know), maybe that city is reduced to 3 or 4 supply chits, if it's winter.

That's what I am curious about.

Thanks

Jagger
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Thu May 24, 2007 7:18 pm

Typically the total supply levels from a supply source region will fluctuate according to the season of the year.

Supply is provided by:

1 supply level per city/indian village level
1 supply level per harbor level
5 supply levels per fort
10 supply levels per depot
0-4 supply levels provided from the countryside

The city, fort and depot levels never change. Although if beseiged, they do not provide supply.

Harbors will not provide supply if blockaded or if the lake/water is frozen. (I believe if you beseige a region with a harbor, you cut off all supply but the harbor...I believe the harbor level continues to provide supply, unless blockaded, while all other sources are cut off...someone correct me if I am wrong.)

Countryside supply varies according to season. During winter weather, the countryside typically won't provide supply. So a region may fluctuate by up to 4 supply levels just dependent on the season. For example, a region providing 6 supply levels (2 city and 4 countryside) during the summer, may only provide 2 supply levels (2 city and 0 countryside) during the winter. Also if the countryside is pillaged, regardless of season, you will see a substantial reduction in countryside supply levels which reduces the total regional supply level.

So when looking for winter supply camps, I will typically only look at the supply provided by the city, harbor, fort and depots and ignore countryside supply levels. If the water freezes, as along the Great Lakes, I won't consider the harbor supply level either. Troops can get very hungry during the winter months if they aren't stationed at a proper supply source.

The reason your units recover stength quicker during the summer is because most regions have more supply available from the coutryside during summer months. Thus the region has more total supply during the summer than the winter which can then give the necessary surplus supply which is needed for refit and recovery of your units.

Jagger
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Thu May 24, 2007 7:35 pm

ussdefiant wrote:the city needs to have extra supplies avalible above and beyound what is needed for the units to simply sustain themselves.

This makes the supply situation even more horrific for the Brits, as they are frequently sending lwo suppply warnings when wintering in Boston, Phily, New york etc. and their units never seem to receive any replacements, as opposed to new elements.

This problem is excaberated by the fact that it apparently takes one supply chit for each element in a unit to repair itself, which means that pratically no portion of the British army will be able to rapair itself over a winter. It seems overly harsh to me, considering the problems the brits have in getting replacement elements as it is.


As the Brits, depots, depots, depots are the answer. I am playing a long campaign 1775-1783 campaign as the Brits against the AI. Supply is my number one priority and shapes my campaign. My attacks are directed towards gaining good locations for depots and forts which then allows me to expand my area of operations to accomplish my victory objectives. The great majority of my supply wagons are converting primarily to depots but also sometimes to forts.

joe
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Thu May 24, 2007 7:55 pm

Jagger, thanks again for the informative reply.

Let me refine my example. A British Regiment with 4 understrenght elements in a level one city with a fort (zero country side supply and no enemy units around). This gives 6 supply chits, enough to supply the unit (2 SC's) plus 4extra SC's to recover strenght points. What would be the wastage percentage to the 6 supply chits? If the percentage is 20% does that mean that the city actually has only 5 SC's, enough to supply the unit but not enough to add back strenght points.

That seems to be what I see, the unit is at 100% supply but does not recover any strenght points.

Maybe the program looks at the unit and determines it needs four extra SC's to make it eligible to recover strenght points, if there is only three extra SC's then it determines that the unit is not eligible and no recovery occurs.

Jagger
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Thu May 24, 2007 8:15 pm

joe wrote:Jagger, thanks again for the informative reply.

Let me refine my example. A British Regiment with 4 understrenght elements in a level one city with a fort (zero country side supply and no enemy units around). This gives 6 supply chits, enough to supply the unit (2 SC's) plus 4extra SC's to recover strenght points. What would be the wastage percentage to the 6 supply chits? If the percentage is 20% does that mean that the city actually has only 5 SC's, enough to supply the unit but not enough to add back strenght points.

That seems to be what I see, the unit is at 100% supply but does not recover any strenght points.

Maybe the program looks at the unit and determines it needs four extra SC's to make it eligible to recover strenght points, if there is only three extra SC's then it determines that the unit is not eligible and no recovery occurs.


If I understand correctly, a single understrength regiment must first recover to full supply, then it should recover strength. You state that the regiment is fully supplied so that should not be the problem.

If the regiment is alone in the region and is fully supplied and is still not gaining strength in a city with a fort, something is wrong. 6 supply level is the ideal supply level to ensure a single fully supplied regiment recovers strength.

English regiments typically need 10 supply points or 2 full supply chits to maintain supply. So no wastage at all. Also Pocus has stated that a single supply chip is needed per element needing recovery. So the wastage concept would not apply to strength recovery as a full supply chip is required per element. 6 supply level should be ideal for a single regiment to recover strength.

Also someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe strengthening is done on an element by element basis. In other words, the supply level will determine the number of elements that will strengthen. I don't think the concept of "all or none" of the elements strengthening applies.

Although, I must admit, I wonder about the one supply chip per element to recovery strength. I have never looked at a specific game situation closely but my impression is that units seem to recovery strength with less than a supply chip per element. Which might support the "element by element" strengthening concept rather than the "all or none" concept.

Your situation doesn't sound right. A single fully supplied regiment should be recovering strength in a 6 supply region as I understand the supply process.

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Pocus
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Fri May 25, 2007 6:15 am

don't forget that the replacement phase is after the supply phase, so the 6 supply chits can be drawn by an adjacent unit too.
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

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